Current meta not much fun

The current meta in teams room is basically about warrior drops and nothing else. Even an air player doesn't really counter it. It would be nice if devs could nerf warrior again soon.

i very often use warriors now,
i dont like the new buff also, with bit pull it can easly fight assaults now, 40 regain is like a 4 caretaker built in retreat zone
or 4x autorepair for a com, only this feature would nearly cost 3x the cost of a warrior

if the problem is the drop part scallop drops would have been op too.
After a while people got used to it. Also positive side effect, players learned to scout!

I think it will get nerf soon. Normally units get balanced like this.
if unit got not real use, it gets slightly better then it should be to acquire needed nerf to not make it useless again.

Several times I have specifically rushed planes to try to stop a drop (otherwise it is usually certain com kill and sometimes fac too), and it hasn't worked because valks are too fast. I'd prefer drops were a clever midgame change rather than a strategy that wins in under a minute with few counters. Warriors are still op tho so I think a nerf for both might be in order.

I agree trollcoms aren't much fun in teams either.

Warrior drop is more fun though than porcwars with lots of artillery.

quote: try the drop in high-level 2v2 or 3v3

http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/401514
http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/401516

Is it high enough?

All said, Warriors cost half two thirds of what Scallops do. Given that Valkyries are dirt cheap, Scallop cost used to be the limiting factor on rush speed. Warriors are the limiting factor in Warrior drop, but one that is twice less limiting.

The Scallop drop rush was not very easy to stop/scout in 2v2; if Warrior drop is of comparable efficiency and is twice faster, it is likely harder to prevent. It might also be enough to fall into the rush margin at which it's blind rps.

I'm not sure if two three games are sufficient to tell, though. Rushes do work sometimes. It wouldn't be hard to bring forth two doubled scorcher rush games and use them to claim that scorcher OP.

Now, for some theorycraft:

1: Consider when blackdawns/brawlers were faster and cheaper to make, or the 50 second gnat lockdown rush when gnats had perfect accuracy. Basically, if the rush strategy is 50 seconds to impact, it becomes blind RPS in most cases.

2: With 20 buildpower, 400 metal available at the beginning and +4 income, a single player can push out about ~480 metal worth of production before stalling in ~24 seconds.

3: It follows that anything that costs 480 metal, can cross the map in 26 seconds, and can deliver a victory is a blind rps rush.

Scallops are reasonably close to the edge of this: two players get 880 rush resource, which they spend on two scallops (280 each) and two valkyries (80 each), for 720 total, rather in the inner size of the threshold but still not far from it.

Three warriors with three valkyries for 840 are also below this threshold. Maybe they were not rushed previously because their dps and health - that is their win chance - was not high enough. Or maybe noone just considered doing it. Two flying warriors can be produced for a mere 560 metal, which is deep into rush threshold territory.

Valkyrie could just cost a bit more to push the triple warrior drop over the threshold, but if two warriors are sufficient to grant a solid kill chance, that won't be enough.

(Worth noting: three slashers and rocket commander, or 3-4 scorchers also can fall into the blind rush category if map is of the proper size. But noone complains.)

There were data fails in the previous post. Apparently, Scallop costs only 280, bringing double Scallop drop to a mere 720 metal, which can be spent at theoretical peak 40m/s speed in 18 seconds (!!)

Maybe 50 seconds is too generous. Are Warriors commonly rushed in pairs or triples? Two warriors would be faster than two scallops by 160 metal. Three warriors would be slower but potentially deadlier?

quote: but theoretically that would be the time needed to scout a rush + time needed to react

This depends on how much time you take to produce the scout and get it to the other side. Consider Dart:
- 4 seconds to build
- 20 seconds to cross the map (assuming it traverses ~as fast as a loaded valkyrie)

You arrive to enemy base just as the drop leaves. You have at most 25 seconds to produce a response in case of a 50 seconds rush.

If they managed their construction faster, in 20 seconds, you spot the valkyries if you're lucky as they fly over the Dart at 20 seconds and win nothing.

If you're unlucky, the valkyries took evasive action or a path that isn't intercepted by your Dart, so you spot the rush by seeing the factories at 25 seconds, when it's 15 seconds to impact.

I think the problem of drops and rushes has a much larger scope.

Consider this: does your team start all together, or separate?

• if you start separately, it's much more difficult to defend against rushes as they become 2v1 (in general, Nv1). But if the enemy doesn't rush you cover more initial mexes and get an advantage.
• if you start together but play non-rush, then you miss out a lot of initial mexes, so it's much more difficult to play against people who started separately. But if you get rushed it's much easier to defend in a group.
• if you start together and are doing a rush, then you can gank a team who started separately Nv1. But if they started together you'll likely fail.

Some maps don't allow you to start separately. It's mostly the corner maps, for example Titan Duel.

Maps which allow separate starts are ALWAYS blind RPS. Not just factory choice, just the startpoints. Of course in a dense enough game this is not as boolean as together vs separate, and small teams are ded, which is why people haven't (seemingly) realized.

My opinion based on a small number of games is that both Valkyrie and Warrior could do with a small-to-moderate application of the nerfbat.

I like that Warrior gives Cloaky a mid-game army that is respectable. I don't like that it takes a gigantic flaming dump on Ravager (among many other things). It could have a bit less range and damage. I kind of like it having some autoheal but the present numbers are likely overkill too.

Valkyrie could also use some nerfing IMO. Scallop drop and the blind RPS with start positions has always been a problem.