Recent Suggestions

The domi should not exist in its current state. It needs redesigning with a real weapon, not buffing.

Panther killing glaives in one shot would make tanks hardcounter everything cloakies have except snipers.

Those changes to ticks, tremors, hacksaws and recluses sound good.

Need buff for raven. With it slow diving speed nobody uses it.
Need buff for detris. It cost 25k metal and one starlight melt it or some berthas too.
Zenith is needed buff. More precison or buff vs shields. Nobody use it.
Dominatrix is almosr ded and only trolls uses it..
There was discussion about pillager buff. More precision would be nice for it.
Hacksaw? What is it? Did somebody uses it? Nobody.
I agree about tick. Or it will be used only on 1 vs 1..
Tremor is fine as it is.
Add for spiders and amphs arty units to deal with porc. Or only mass attack or crabe spires only left as options.

Buff panther ROF instead so you don't have to wait so long for that Nth shot?

Hacksaw as disarm-AA - make disarmed bombers lose their ammo and return to pad. Then give Hacksaw enough power to disarm Wyverns.

Could Domi get some kind of target-acquisition delay that would give raiders and crawling bombs enough time to get into firing range before the beam starts? Like a charge-time before opening fire? Then the Domi could be buffed without making mass-Domi too powerful.

Tank factory doesn't really need a buff, does it? It's very common. Kodachi and Panther are two very strong raiders. Why buff either of them?

Tremor buff could be fun, but is probably not needed. It's already very very good at making maps flat. Plus tanks probably have the strongest assault, so artillery is rarely needed (see rarity of Pillager).

A Tick damage buff would make them extremely cheesy early comm snipe units. I think the recent sight buff should be fine for now.

Dominatrix is very slippery slope. I don't really like the concept of slippery units or Domi in particular. Also white lines all over the map look very ugly/confusing/unclean/distracting.

Hacksaw can be removed, there's already Newton.

Recluse is probably only considered weak because other spiders got buffed/added. I'm a bit afraid of seeing spiders dominate flat land maps like amphibs are starting to. Spiders are already very powerful/viable on many maps.

Challenge with Domi is that it's *double*-slippery. Slippery first in that an accurate skirmisher can exploit Lancasters Square, and slippery second in that it's a capture unit.

Every discussion of the tank units ends with "it doesn't need a buff because Reaper."

quote: I think domi already counters tanks quite hard. I've demonstrated this lots of times in 1v1

Unless i'm mistaken, most of those demonstrations involved greater cost in domi than enemy could field in tanks. Under those conditions, a lot of things will work.

quote: I too am hesitant to relive the slaughter of panther vs. glaive. I was too bad to reliably gauge their power at the time, but I remember using panthers to make ridiculous cost in big teams vs. both glaives and scorchers. This revert would further disincentivise bots near flats.

is it really a problem if the 300 metal raider beats the 65 metal raider (in direct combat, not at actual raider buisness) - for the price of sitting around on its 300 metal ass being useless as soon as enemy switches out of raiders?


panthers' only job is to counter other raiders, they can also with high micro effort kill the occasional stray reaper etc. thats it. i am fairly sure that it does not counter "the whole cloakie fac", in fact, it probably counters nothing except glaives and rockos/hammers.

(if you micro them all the time because you need to kill 4 rockos to make cost and you need 3 shots for each. if you face any serious amount of rockos they are at an advantage.)

depends on micro and numbers, if you micro real hard you eventually win vs rockos, but any mistakes will be costly.

warriors for even metal should absolulety ruin panthers (tho maybe no in very small numbers?)

As with most things ZK, it is about attrition. Panthers stay alive without taking loses. By default that is good point to start playing from.

well the last part isnt actually true, the whole fac heavily depends on careful micro and picking of fights together with lots of repair (which also mandates that you get a break to do that, which isnt always the case). metal for metal, tanks loose to lighter units, as all heavies do.

that a counter of something kills an indefinite number of that thing isnt necessarily a problem, riots do that all the time. its true that panther would be an exception because of its speed, but its role is so narrow and its usefulness outside of killing raiders so limited that i think its not a problem. real riots are useful for all kinds of things, not just countering raiders (which they arent even so great at).

that said, i used panthers a lot too before they were nerfed, but the main reason why it was often succesful was because enemies did the wrong thing. they fed panthers with insufficient numbers of possible counters, or tried to attack with raiders, etc. the stun makes them win against smaller number without any losses, as it makes sense for the factory because this is how tanks work, and you beat them the same way you beat the rest of the factory, by not letting them bleed you dry.