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The Nub Experience

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WHY WE MUST LUV NUBS

1. ZK experience would be better with a larger player base, so that a variety of matches and skill levels are available at any time.
2. To increase player base we need to attract new players and keep them. In time some will become good players.
3. Currently, nubs are often receive much abuse for their general nubness and have difficulty with learning curve. This also annoys good players by ruining smaller team games.
4. So, perhaps we can improve the nub experience.

THOUGHTS

-Voice instructions

lazy

happy

learn good. Lots of text

effort = sleepy. Add voice instruction with sexy voice (who has sexy voice? do anyone of u naturally sound like soundwave from original transformers).


-Nubs often will just try game to see if its fun, and only invest effort if they like it. So, we should make mad effortz in streamlining learning process.

-We should discuss what is priority minimum skills to teach

-ZK is unlikely to be nub's first ever RTS game? So we should focus on teaching only ZK-specific, priority stuff? This would streamline nub experience lots.

-We should use lobby or web site or something to get feedback/do polls from nubs while they are learning. Ie. "is this too hard? does it make sense". Use feedback to improve process

-midkar suggests - mentor system
-TheSponge suggests - mandatory single player before teams host is unlocked

POSSIBLE PRIORITY STUFF TO LEARN (what would u like?)
-Raiders do this, riot does that, skirmish used for this, licho pwns everything
-Make units, don't porc nub!
-Its a grid. Here's how it works.
-No really, don't rush a detri...
+3 / -0
quote:
we should make mad effortz in streamlining learning process.

What kind of mad effort are you yourself willing to start, as an example for others to follow?
+0 / -0
10 years ago
I will start by writing threads on the topic :P
+1 / -0
10 years ago
quote:
This also annoys good players by ruining smaller team games.

Yes it does. That is why they come in for all the abuse. People start ruining playing public games before they even remotely know how to play. This really annoys people which results in rage which results in a worse game for everybody. Some kind of mandatory single player telling people how to play properly would go a long way to solving this. We can do without people who want to jump into public games without doing any of the recommended stuff that keeps them from spoiling the game.

To anyone who says people who don't like it should play in the experienced only room, it does not work.
+0 / -0
TheSponge - I think "nubs keep ruining ma gamez" is self-defeating becoz more nubs are needed to grow player base, and without happy nubs u don't get big enough community with veterans to be able to choose to avoid nubs :)
+4 / -0
Meh. I've never been annoyed by having new players in my team. It's really just a mindset thing. Some games you win, some you lose. It's a game after all, no reason to take it super duper seriously and get pissed off just because an ally of yours didn't do a very good job.

I totally support Lyth's point here. Although I don't have empirical evidence to support this, it is obvious that if the community as a whole was more welcoming towards new players, ZK would have a larger playerbase.
+2 / -0


10 years ago
quote:
This really annoys people which results in rage which results in a worse game for everybody.

This line of thought says that it's the fault of the new players, because the experienced players just can't help themselves and have no choice but to rage. This is, of course, pure bullshit. It's not the new players' fault for being new, it's the experienced players' fault for raging.

quote:
Some kind of mandatory single player telling people how to play properly would go a long way to solving this.

Bullshit. Mandatory single-player will only discourage people from playing.

quote:
To anyone who says people who don't like it should play in the experienced only room, it does not work.

Bullshit. It would work if the people who are complaining actually did it. But they'd rather complain, rage, and keep the user base small. Because they're idiots.

GTFU or GTFO.
+6 / -2
10 years ago
I would not have phrased it like that but I agree with CrazyEddie, there are always a 4-6 1800 elo guys who plays "pubs" games and complain, but I rarely see a move vote. And mandatory tutorial is the faster way to make peoples leave the game even before starting it.

A thing other games with steep learning curve (dota) introduced is a mentor sistem: instead of having the newbie spectate, a pro will spectate him and draw/text/speack only to him, with no spec cheat since his visual is limited to what his student see.

+0 / -0
quote:
Mandatory single-player will only discourage people from playing.

Citation needed. Downvote for tone.

quote:
there are always a 4-6 1800 elo guys who plays "pubs" games and complain, but I rarely see a move vote

Unsure, i haven't done this for a while.. are partial move votes a thing already? I.e, yea-voters get moved, nay-voters stay?
+0 / -0
10 years ago
We need PW up and running, thats really what drew me in, as well as most of the nubs in my clan.
+0 / -0
quote:
Mandatory single-player will only discourage people from playing.

It will discourage the people with no interest in learning to play properly who ZK is better off without. People who do want to learn to play well and add to the enjoyment of the community will understand why it is needed.

We need more players. They will play badly when they start. What needs to be done is making the new players get better without them doing stupid things in public games and annoying everyone. There are many ways to do this. Of all of them I think the easiest and most effective would be mandatory learn-to-play-properly before playing public games.

quote:
TheSponge - I think "nubs keep ruining ma gamez" is self-defeating becoz more nubs are needed to grow player base, and without happy nubs u don't get big enough community with veterans to be able to choose to avoid nubs :)

That is true, but it works the other way round too. The veterans do not like the nubs doing stupid things. That leads to unhappy veterans which leads to rage which leads to unhappy nubs which ends in unhappy everyone.

USrankCrazyEddie has it not occurred to you that you are the only one raging here about how much rage there is? Do you not understand that such appalling tone will not get you a positive response? Flame away, you only make your argument look stupid.
+0 / -0

10 years ago
quote:
mandatory learn-to-play-properly before playing public games

Afaik, biggest knowledge/skill gains come from 1v1. By being slaughtered. Sure, being able to defeat CAI reduces the amount of stupid things people will do, but terraforming a ring around your base or doing other cheesy stuff that CAI can't handle will not work in public games either.
+1 / -0
10 years ago
quote:
biggest knowledge/skill gains come from 1v1. By being slaughtered.

Very true. Very few newbies play 1v1 however, so they pile into the 10v10 room and get raged at for everything without knowing what they did wrong. I think more of them would play 1v1 and small teams and get better if such game types were more available. If this means sacrificing the 10v10 room then all the better I think it will be worth it.
+0 / -0
Skasi
10 years ago
USrankluckywaldo7 has a sexy voice. Honk honk! (UP the volume!!)
+0 / -0
10 years ago
Maybe we could start even simpler:

Usually all the feedback a nub gets is "fuck you are doing that wrong". We should simply change that and reward good behavior instead of only critizising mistakes.

topf
+2 / -0
@saktoth 's polygam voice is pure sex!
+0 / -0
10 years ago
I frequently could not understand what Saktoth was saying in that cast. His words were often blurring into each other.
+0 / -0
1.
To watch replays, you need the right engine, download the replay and open it, but pre-newbes are lazy.
Solution: Link from our manual to YouTube videos - you can also go forwards and backwards in time.

2.
We need a working portable with zk.
Either 91.0, 94.1 or any other which is not crashing, memory-leaking, etc + a working lobby.
(My latest experience: My portable Spring 91.0 create GL_UNDERRUN and 1000 similar errors, lags after first few units are built - such things should not happen for newbes)

Just - though devs prefer and highlight ZKL - link our DL page to weblobby.springrts.com, spring-lobby, nota-lobby and let the linux user decide which to use or finally link to a working Linux-ZKL.

The Play menu should have these sections:
* Get the spring engine - with different pages for Portables, Linux, Windows and Mac-OS if it gets too large.
* Get spring games - highlight ZK, link to springfiles.com-> spring games
* Get new maps - highlight a featured maps map pack, other maps
* Get your favourite lobby - highlight ZKL, but list others too for lazy linux users.
* Get Missions
* Get Replays

3.
Somebody who knows many missions, should create 2 campaigns with offline-start-script (for those who don't have ZKL)
* one to teach RTS game basics
* one to teach ZK
See it as a task-list made of missions for newbes and mission-authors.
+0 / -0
1. I'm not sure about weblobby, but ZKL can play replays with one button, and everything needed is downloaded. This is how I set up my casts all the time, except one week where the server was acting wonky, then I had to use the engine directly, but that is quite rare. I'm not sure I see the concern here, though I haven't tested the ZK website one-button playback with Linux, so in that regard there may be an issue.

2. Ideally 96.0, and it looks like progress on that is going forward well.
+1 / -0
I think the problem is threefold: A, the teamgame community is unwilling to help new players, B, the new players are encouraged to play chickens and CAI games in which they learn the opposite of what works in PvP games, and C, the 1v1 community is helpful but many new players refuse to play it because they are intimidated, or because they assume they will be even more elitist and intolerant than bigteams.

A. This is something which is caused by, largely, the good players on a bigteams game being relied on to carry while the rest of the team does little of use. As a result, nobody who knows what to do is able to help anyone who does not. Also as a result, the good players get resentful about carrying all the time, and start raging at the bad players instead of trying to help. In addition to that, it seems like a lot of players are just dicks.

This can be solved by splitting the games much more aggressively, either by roomsize lowering or by common agreement. The better players could play each other in games with teamwork and strategy, and the worse players could play each other and improve or not without getting raged at. They would have to take responsibility for their own actions if there were no longer a few players holding up the team, and as such hopefully realise the folly of singulo rushes and massing up raiderballs to throw at each other.

Smaller games would also make the game seem less high-system-requirements, less empty, less slowpaced and boring (which it is, for those who aren't in the front), and make there be enough rooms open for people to join one with people they want to play with, not just all the people.

We also need, possibly even more, to crack down (as a community, not just the administration) on people being rude and insulting instead of giving good advice. When somebody is raging at a newbie, we need to, as a group, reject that and tell the subject of the rage what the problem is, not just that they are bad. This would help player retention and skill level.

B. Chickens and CAI considered harmful. They promote lazy playing and a lack of understanding how the game works. I propose that chickens is level-locked at 5 or so, and the "add bot" button is removed from the ZKL - meaning that only those knowlegeable to add it would be able to do so. This would lead to players not doing the mass-porc-fests they tend to be drawn into when PVP seems too intimidating, leading to the aforementioned boredom, lag, and lack of skill.

C. With the rooms split lower, there would hopefully be a lot more people in the 1v1 rooms - no longer would there be one room with 4 or so vets and a few newbies, and most of them just spectating. ALso, we should put up some sort of message on first login, or some sort of blatant "Newbie Guide" which will give good advice, including "go to the 1v1 room to ask for help if needed, they help new players a lot" or something better said than that.

TL;DR split teams way lower, levellock chickens, split teams way lower, socially reject the ragers and the trolls, split teams way lower, and make a good and highly visible new player guide.

Also, we should stop being so generally patronising about them (I'm guilty as anyone, but I can see how it would be disturbing.)

Any new players have input on this?
+2 / -0
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