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http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/299936I suggest to remove the ability to have both cloak and dgun on coms. My com died as did many units in this game to a cloacked com with dgun. Where is the stategy? It's a surefire kill to the com holder. Of course, I could have set cloacked counter-units around com to decloack any potential cloacked dgun com but come on, it's no fun if we have to do this every game at this very early stage. My com could have handled a couple of scythe, a sniper, but not a dgun. There's no way to scout a player in the process of morphing to a cloacked dgun com. And where is the skill there? You get close, you shoot, you hit. No skills at all. Someone could say that ultimatum is the same but strangely, I see nobody rushing ulti at early game, only cloacked com with of course the ability to run (many servos modules), which ulti does not have, not to mention ability to build etc. Ulti also has a downside, it can be decloacked and surrounded by raiders. With coms, even this does not work as they have the second weapon, generally a riot weapon. As for skuttle, I see nothing wrong with them, it's not comparable. Sure, it's hard to stop but (1) you lose your unit (2) sometimes, it misses and com stays alive (although badly damaged). You could say: "abuse cloacked dgun coms and it will get nerfed". I find this way of playing corward-like and I would prefer avoiding having to go to this length. What do you think?
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It's cheaper to make an Ultimatum. No commorph required. I think you're more upset about the com hitting you, and living, which is also the part where skills are required, and which can be avoided by one patrolling Swift, a Firewalker, a couple glaives, or fleas.
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you need better skills Connetable and not a nerf...
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   Xivender put it quite bluntly, but yeah, I think it's possible (even if frustrating) to counter. That being said, I wouldn't mind if either was removed.
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it's interesting that any time someone finds a new strategy, it gets disabled.
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quote:
any time someone finds a new strategy... |
New? Using a cloaked comm to DGun expensive stuff is 1997. quote:
...it gets disabled |
Huh? Nothing actually happened. Even if Comm DGun gets removed you will still be able to do the same with Ultimatum.
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I don't think there should be artificial module limitations like that. At least not just yet. However I do see issues with comm balance, especially autorepair modules. quote:
It's cheaper to make an Ultimatum. No commorph required. |
Ultimatum can not have unsurpassable in-combat autorepair, nor raider-like speed, nor buildpower, nor a built-in riot gun though. quote:
it's interesting that any time someone finds a new strategy, it gets disabled |
It's not a new strategy. Cloaked dgun comms are at least as old as BA (ZK's predecessor's predecessor), probably as old as Spring and maybe even as old as OTA (17 years). (edit: nuuu Sprung ninjad me!)    Connetable: Being an unorganized (public room) 11v11 with half the game consisting of very weak players the battle you linked is probably not the best example to bring into a balance discussion.
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Ok then what about this one: http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/299962First time I ever use a dgun com, I got CA award... no skilled required I told you
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quote:
I don't think there should be artificial module limitations like that. At least not just yet. However I do see issues with comm balance, especially autorepair modules. |
Module limitations exist, though. You cannot have Autoflechette and Standoff Rocket at the same time. Of course this is due to the chassis but you might as well treat a chassis as an exclusive module pack (Recon would be speed and jump module while Battle damage and health module, etc.). DGun and Personal Cloak having separate chassis requirements would not introduce any new limitation types. Autorepair modules are probably a derail, last discussion about them was [url=9475]here[/url] iirc. Edit: Connetable, your new example still suffers from the same problems Skasi brought up: quote:
Being an unorganized (public room) 11v11 with half the game consisting of very weak players the battle you linked is probably not the best example to bring into a balance discussion. |
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Looks like it's more the psychological impact that is a problem. As someone that morphs his com way more than he should, I can tell you that there are MANY other ways to lose a well-upgraded comm that you often won't see coming : - Bombers - Skuttles - Paralyzed by gnats/infiltrators - Finished off by a Penetrator - Ambushed by Raiders/Jacks ... The Failers are well known for liking to troll with their coms. IIRC yours wasn't even lvl 3, while FireNeb spent quite a lot of metal to upgrade his own. It made cost, but mostly because your team didn't really coordinate to hunt it down (also you didn't have air). Yourself, you didn't indicate the spot where your com was dgunned. And the dgun/cloak com of your team doesn't look like it made cost. The dgun has a recharge of 20 seconds, compare with the contribution of a fully upgraded comm on the front line but focused on regular combat. Compare also the amount of micro required. Now if dgun/cloak combo is indeed too powerful, outright banning it might not be necessary - just increasing dgun cost/required lvl might be enough. Public large team rooms where most players are spending their time should also considered for balance discussions IMHO.
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Team games aren't considered because the skill level in those is really low. Two good players on each team just troll around doing special tactics, and the rest porc waiting for something to happen. The last team game I played I built: 8 slashers, 10 masons, 30+ wolverines, and then the game was over. Does this mean that wolverines are op? No, it means people are terrible at countering wolverine spam.
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infiltrator is yur friend,skuttle is yur savior
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Most of the time 11v11s end up with the team completely silent and doing whatever. People dont communicate with the team nor do they listen/pay attention (to either information or advice). Thus most folks end up with a [colour=red]severe[/colour] lack of situational awareness or are left in the dark on how to handle a situation. You have a team, you have extra eyes and ears, use them. Call out threats to the other folks, even if you can handle them. I'll be developing a solution to help with this...
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killing sfireman's dgun troll with the first skuttle.   B276813 17 on Nuclear_Winter_v11) scout. see it while morphing, know your enemy and you have 100% assurance he is dgun trolling. 2) have a bait (poor noob teamplayer). 3) lurk. 4) it decloakes, its dead.
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Another issue with removing this combination: the policy on legacy morphs seems to be to allow them to be kept (for example Anarchid still has Standoff Rocket on a Battle com; or I used to have Plasma Containment at level 2). This means most people who regularly use it would still have it anyway.
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quote:
Autorepair modules are probably a derail |
I just browsed all top 10 players' commanders and found a lot of strike+riot+dgun+cloak commanders. The most common modules for this combination were High Power Servos (5x to 8x per comm) and Autorepair System (1x to 3x per comm).
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quote:
It's cheaper to make an Ultimatum. |
Morph to level 3 has base cost 800m; DGun costs 450m; Personal Cloak 400m. This totals to 1650m. The morph buildpower is free and you can use the Comm while morphing. Comm cloak has 5/10 energy upkeep. You can add 75m to get cloaked Riot Cannon which is the best one at countering light spam (which is the counter to cloak). Ultimatum costs 2000m which alone is more expensive than a DGun comm. This is not even counting the additional fac cost (500m for Athena), the buildpower cost, and the cloak upkeep cost (Ulti cloak upkeep is 8/24). You can also not use the Ultimatum before it is done and it cannot be further upgraded.
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Good point, let's compare this to Ulti: 
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Skasi forget about ultimatum and comm reload time. And this is big difference. Also com d-gun wasn't little powerfull attack then ultimatum d-gun? I thought that ultimatum also have autorepair. Even it isn't combat autorepair. And one more thing - player can build more then one ultimatum. Com be only one if not start with two or even three. And also ultimatum can be rushed using more buildpower, bet com cannot. I can also said that d-gun com ir expensive and fragile choice if enemy air player is good. There ir many games i played when this com was really useless and player puts all resources and control in it and doom his team. So i think that this com isn't OP. It's not just one com who decide game result. It is all team tactics how to work.
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