In http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/263148 one player "rushes" a strider hub at the start of the game. This is an annoying strategy because either your team protects you for long enough and you get a hero unit out and win the game; or the huge delay until you have anything built disadvantages your team too much and your team loses. So basically, the rusher sits back and gets potential glory whilst the rest of the team sweats to try and hold the line. If this strategy could be biased to fail more reliably then it wouldn't matter, because your ELO would drop and balance will compensate. So my idea is that the hub gives away it's location (i.e. similar to Starlight). Then building a hub right at the start would attract a lot of attention, indicate your potential nabitude, and tip off your opponent that you lack combat resources in play and may be easier to take out.
+1 / -4
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like wounders in AoE. i like the idea. maybe the lab itself is wrong. but the strider unit, also bertha and more expensive hillarious stuff. unsure about krow or singu.
+0 / -0
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Knowing where to bomb stuff as nukes and berthas is a massive nerf to those endbringers, and consequently, to probability of a game ever ending.
+3 / -0
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Yeah, I'm just suggesting it for the nub hub. I don't think it's a huge nerf to that because it is usually built well back, plus it could be used as strategic bait (just because there is a nub hub, doesn't mean there are any striders being built).
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This isn't going to happen. Revealing certain structures to everyone feels arbitrary. These things can be scouted.
+6 / -0
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Strider rushes are hilarious especially if the enemy team doesnt have air and doesnt scout you. They are fun for the person who rushes them and a punishment to the enemy team for not scouting. If you only want this because you think they are "unbalanced" there exists counters such as: - Bombers! - ANTI-HEAVY units- Skuttles -  rush - SCOUTINGAll of the above will make cost. Especially the last one. If you reveal strider labs you take out two things - the need for scouting and the element of surprise. You NEED to scout. This is part of the game! You don't scout these rushes you kind of deserve to die to them. Consider it punishment for failure to scout. Now on the other hand if people don't listen to you when you spot a rush... that's another story in which the entire team deserves to die. On the other hand if you take out of the element of surprise as     Anarchid said you add to the probability of a never ending game which eventually people will get bored of and leave. Worse yet, if a game has that potential to become a never ending stalemate, people will start to become reluctant to play it. I personally hate it when a game devolves into porcville and lasts over 60 minutes. Edit: TL;DR version:  > 
+5 / -0
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Since you can overfly enemy base with warpspeed (Swift) it is quite easy to scout and in my opinion an constant scout of enemy behaviour is necessary
+2 / -0
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^.^ yea fleas, jethro, planes, ect. exist USE THEM
+1 / -0
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I don't think continuous scouting is so easy in medium/big team games, at least not without donating metal. @ArchShaman, I don't want to nerf striders, I want to make "hero" tactics - which are very appealing to new players - less attractive. There is still an element of surprise: when will strider complete, which one, where will it be deployed. You still need to scout for everything else that can be built. Plus if you send e.g. bombers in blind then you might be in for a nasty surprise. That said,    GoogleFrog has spoken, so end of discussion :)
+0 / -0
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New players will not know that the Strider Hub is always visible. Your change would only affect the thought processes of more experienced players.
+1 / -0
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quote:
I don't want to nerf striders, I want to make "hero" tactics - which are very appealing to new players - less attractive. There is still an element of surprise: when will strider complete, which one, where will it be deployed. You still need to scout for everything else that can be built. Plus if you send e.g. bombers in blind then you might be in for a nasty surprise. |
Anyone rushing a strider would get one of the lesser ones. If a strider lab was revealed to me I'd go: quote:
Oh hey a strider lab. Break out of the anti-heavies. |
And soon the battlefield would be flooded with anti-heavies. Dante rush? Lol. Dead to anti-heavies. Lol scorpion rush? Anti heavies everywhere! Maybe dead. Ultimatiums? Tell a teammate to get some fleas along with my anti-heavies. Bantha rush? Too late. You don't seem to understand the element of surprise part. If the enemy does not know I have gone striders, I probably don't have to worry about anti-strider measures. If the enemy gets auto vision of the strider hub? They start making anti-striders. It doesn't take much to make an Athena and rush a ultimatium completely out of view of the enemy unlike your proposed strider hub. Edit: Newbies rarely are attracted to the 'hero' tactics. They very very very often make a little porc fort behind the front line and just sit there spaming shields and pylons. I believe my data shows that about 1 in 12 newbies are actually aggressive. You really don't want to get rid of newbie aggressiveness. You want to ATTRACT them to start attacking. ... By any means necessary.
+0 / -0
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quote:
New players will not know that the Strider Hub is always visible. Your change would only affect the thought processes of more experienced players. |
Maybe they make that mistake once because they don't read the description. I would predict that the first time a new player does it they will experience a rage-label-fest from allies that makes it clear to them what they have done. Then with any luck a raider force will turn up to kill it and make the point.
+0 / -0
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quote:
Anyone rushing a strider would get one of the lesser ones. If a strider lab was revealed to me I'd go: |
Or they don't build one at all. Good luck with Ultimatum vs Fleas. quote:
And soon the battlefield would be flooded with anti-heavies. Dante rush? Lol. Dead to anti-heavies. Lol scorpion rush? Anti heavies everywhere! Maybe dead. Ultimatiums? Tell a teammate to get some fleas along with my anti-heavies. |
Is coordinated strider rush actually a good thing for the game? I find it immensely annoying on the receiving end, and it puts all the power in one player's hands on the other. quote:
Edit:
Newbies rarely are attracted to the 'hero' tactics. They very very very often make a little porc fort behind the front line and just sit there spaming shields and pylons. I believe my data shows that about 1 in 12 newbies are actually aggressive. You really don't want to get rid of newbie aggressiveness. You want to ATTRACT them to start attacking. |
Fair point, but I don't agree strider hub start at back of base is an improvement vs frontline porc.
+0 / -0
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striders are undeniably good units, but there are many counters to all types of striders that are multipurpose (such as arty and skirmishers both pwn ligh stiders hard)
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quote:
Is coordinated strider rush actually a good thing for the game? |
If someone managed to achieve team coordination in clusterfuck games then that's a good omen indeed! quote:
they will experience a rage-label-fest from allies that makes it clear to them what they have done |
Most newbies disregard rage labels; on the other hand, helpful labels (as in, explaining why what they do sucks that would actually make it clear) are kinda rare because noone ever bothers. There are also other rushes available, such as noox. Of course, revealing it would prompt the enemy to get anti, making the unit virtually useless - and yet, tek2noox' effect is the same as a strider rush (allies hold -> release roflpwn). Would you reveal a nuke? Note that there are also heavy units in most generic factories (eg. Sumo, Crab e, Grizzly, Wyvern). Would you reveal those facs?
+0 / -0
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quote:
If someone managed to achieve team coordination in clusterfuck games then that's a good omen indeed! |
I've seen coordinated Krow rush often enough (which, notably, isn't a strider as such). quote:
There are also other rushes available, such as noox. Of course, revealing it would prompt the enemy to get anti, making the unit virtually useless - and yet, tek2noox' effect is the same as a strider rush (allies hold -> release roflpwn). Would you reveal a nuke?
Note that there are also heavy units in most generic factories (eg. Sumo, Crabe, Grizzly, Wyvern). Would you reveal those facs? |
I don't believe that being inconsistent here would necessarily make for a bad game. FWIW I think Wyvern is borderline strider class and Krow definitely is, but I wouldn't mark their construction. All the statics are slightly different cases, as they often have a hard counter (at the extreme, anti-nuke). I don't find striders are countered in quite the same rigid way, plus you wouldn't know what is coming without scouting. And there are interesting potential strategies opened by revealing location: * Build hub. Wait for bombers. Kill bombers. * Build hub. Wait for scout. Initiate Det. Pause build. Deploy Fleas. * Build multiple hubs. Which one does enemy scout/attack?
+0 / -1
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imo what you propose is unnecessary and bore inducing
+3 / -0
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quote:
FWIW I think Wyvern is borderline strider class and Krow definitely is, but I wouldn't mark their construction |
So all you'd achieve is make the rushers use the non-revealing non-strider heavies for their sneaky plans. quote:
I've seen coordinated Krow rush often enough (which, notably, isn't a strider as such). |
Good. If anything, teamwork should be encouraged!
+0 / -0
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quote:
you get a hero unit out and win the game; or the huge delay until you have anything built disadvantages your team too much and your team loses. |
So the strider hub can either win or lose you the game? How awfully balanced! We must change it! Then we must change all the other factories that are balanced too.
+0 / -0
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So all you'd achieve is make the rushers use the non-revealing non-strider heavies for their sit back and sip on a cocktail plans. |
FTFY :) quote:
Good. If anything, teamwork should be encouraged! |
Really? "Assist my Krow, nabs" is teamwork? Well I suppose so, but it's a pretty limited role for most of the players. quote:
So the strider hub can either win or lose you the game? How awfully balanced! We must change it! Then we must change all the other factories that are balanced too. |
It's the variance that bothered me. Either you drag your team into the ground or you elevate them to greatness. My theory was that it was annoying to play with an ally like that. CONCLUSION: I lose. Also I will try to scout more.
+1 / -0
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