Rather than halfway-together posts about the subject, I felt I wanted to create a topic for full views on balance, framed by the specific changes we would like to see. Here are what I believe should change, with a reasonable set of balance tweaks. Pyro: Range: 280->270 Health: 700->650 Moderator: Range: 410->440 Rocko: Cost: 90->100 Duck: Reload Time: 4->3.5 Raven: Max Velocity: 7.8->7.5 Turn Radius: 160->180 Health: 1100->1050 Phoenix: Cost: 360->430 Health: 700->1300 Trident: Health: 1500->1800 Rapier: Cost: 300->290 Blackdawn: Cost: 900->1000 Brawler: Cost 760->800 Health: 2800->3300 Hunter: Damage:450->390 AoE: 128->156 Health: 1700->1600 Snake: Cost: 350->290 Damage: 420->360 Range: 360->350 Reload Time: 4.5->4 Max Damage: 875->800 Skeeter: Health: 200->220 AoE: 8->64 Enforcer: Cost: 1000->900 Claymore: Health: 1000->1100 Damage: 800-750 Urchin: Health: 1000->900 Gremlin: Range: 700->670 Shredder: Health: 1900->1700 Damage: 14->12 Razor's Kiss Damage Reduction: 75%->66%(4x to 3x) Wolverine: Cost: 260->240 I am quite interested in what numbers changes others would like to see, and would gladly explain how I came about any of these specific choices.
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As a general note, it's much easier to evaluate a specific claim or proposal on balance when the reasoning is tied to it. This leads to long posts and why people tend to make threads over specific sections like sea balance. I'd like to see your reasoning, but beware that long threads of balance claims usually end up in gif fire.
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i heared gif. should i end this?
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I agree that most gunship except for BD can use a buff, as they are now GS seem quite inefficient for cost IMO. BD can be nerfed as their prominent use in recent tournament/game show that they are too effective for cost. the range of buff may vary and debatable.
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quote:
Raven:
Max Velocity: 7.8->7.5
Turn Radius: 160->180
Health: 1100->1050
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The only one i disagree with. The health nerf is absolutely unneeded, and the other two can also be argued against.
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I think it is very desirable to identify balance problems, but that actually scoping the changes like this is largely pointless as the devs will solve problems their own way. A better use of such thread is to explain why you think each unit needs the change. nonetheless: quote:
Pyro:
Range: 280->270
Health: 700->650 |
Why? Disagree, unit seems fine and lack of unit roles in the lab mean Pyro needs to do all the heavy lifting. It gets massacred by riots and assaults and does badly vs light defences. quote:
Moderator:
Range: 410->440 |
Dangerous to increase range of a high alpha perfect accuracy unit -- I think a more sensible route (if a buff is needed) would be HP. quote:
Rocko:
Cost: 90->100 |
I think the problem is with the unit, not the cost. It is too tanky for its range. Making it cost more will not prevent the critical mass of rocko that massacres so many lab. quote:
Duck:
Reload Time: 4->3.5 |
Do we know enough about the Duck to make changes atm? air changes: what justifications for these? Not sure I agree in any of these cases. sea changes: I dont know enough to comment quote:
Gremlin:
Range: 700->670 |
why? Gremlin is well balanced imo, and certainly not OP. It fails vs planes terribly. quote:
Razor's Kiss
Damage Reduction: 75%->66%(4x to 3x) |
if it is 4x, fully agree in the name of consistency. quote:
Wolverine:
Cost: 260->240 |
I'd rather see more HP personally - lower cost will mean more laggy spam.
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quote:
if it is 4x, fully agree in the name of consistency. |
Units that are unable to shoot when armored state get 4x. This includes: Faraday Gauss Halberd Razor Doomsday Machine Annihilator Units that are able to shoot when armored get 3x. This includes: Crabe If consistency is desired, i would rephrase the criterion as "units that are unable to act in any way get 4x, otherwise 3x". That would put Halberd into 3x category because it can act by moving.
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Pyro: Currently the Pyro has no good counters, and is able to sufficiently outmanuver things that counter it that it becomes more than a bread and butter unit, it becomes almost the only thing people make from the factory. This occurred because its range was effectively increased due to targeting changes. A small health decrease and range nerf will help bring it back in line, strengthening its counters (riot units) and without majorly changing its other uses. Moderator: Currently the moderator lacks sufficient range to effectively kite many assault units, which is kinda its whole purpose. A small range buff will give it room to maneuver and fulfill its role. This is preferable to increasing health which will just create another rocko (genericly good unit) Rocko: I think it is not an uncommon view that the rocko is too good. I think it a reasonable perspective that its generalist nature makes it unique. Therefore a broad-spectrum reduction in its effectiveness by increasing its cost seems like a reasonable solution without stepping on its toes or influencing combat balance majorly. Duck: I have watched a reasonable number of games with Ducks. It is my perspective that they are slightly too weak, having radically less DPS than other raiders, in return for burst. I feel this disadvantage is too extreme and could use some easing up on. Gremlin: I contend it is the best AA because of its cloaking, though perhaps not to an extreme. I feel it likely should be brought slightly in line. The changes near the end represent those changes I am less confident in. Razors Kiss: Honestly, I just feel its health is too much - even if it is consistent. I think it shouldn't be weaker vs air, but instead vs ground where it takes an extremely long time to kill one. I feel it is so hard to kill it warps air/ground synergy.
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quote:
a broad-spectrum reduction in its effectiveness by increasing its cost seems like a reasonable solution |
Adjusting cost would make it from "generally good" to "generally bad" at most. Nerf weaknesses, buff strengths. I would attack its health or projectile velocity. quote:
I feel it is so hard to kill it warps air/ground synergy. |
It's not hard to kill when unpacked, or when using an armor-piercing weapon. Unfortunately, only one armor-piercing weapon exists in ZK.
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When I first saw the thread I didn't expect much. Such bulk balance suggestion threads are almost always relatively bad and very easy to disagree with. However, after skimming through the suggestions I was pleasantly surprised - most of the non-water suggestions were quite sane(perhaps other than the phoenix change). I still disagree with several of those suggestions, but +1 from me for a positive surprise. It's a thread of opinions, I guess I'll throw mine in as well. The stuff that I agree with: Pyro, Moderator, Raven, Rapier, BD suggestions Stuff that I disagree with: Phoenix, Gremlin suggestions     Anarchidquote:
I would attack its health or projectile velocity. |
HP reduction would be preferrable IMO. Projectile velocity decrease would make them worse vs everything, this would include stuff like warriors and zeuses. Even they can and do dodge shots. HP nerf would specifically make it weaker vs anything that can fire back at it - most importantly phoenixes, raiders and statics (which up to DDM are ineffective against rocko).
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In general I don't want to touch things which I consider mature and don't seem to be broken. Slight tweaks may give an improvement eventually but it is at the cost of destabilizing the meta. Changes which are too reactionary sort of penalize people for playing the current game well because their newly developed technique is often the one that looks OP and would be nerfed. For minor things I like people to have a decent amount of time trying to counter it. quote:
Pyro:
Range: 280->270
Health: 700->650 |
This would be a decent nerf if a nerf is required. The Pyro game is too new though. quote:
Moderator:
Range: 410->440 |
This unit is too unknown for me to know what a good buff would be. I think we will see more Moderator when (if) people get over Pyro and want something to support their Jumpbots. Wait until Pyro is 'sorted' before looking at this unit. I have seen it work well in situations where it is supposed to work well so it is not a massive concern. quote:
Rocko:
Cost: 90->100 |
Currently I think a Rocko nerf is only justified if you don't like Rocko as it is not powerful or overused enough otherwise. This is not a good nerf in any case because Rocko is the cheapest skirmisher, Quant's Rule. It is also far too large for such a pivotal unit. If I had to nerf I would slightly reduce projectile velocity as it seems like it can be significant and would improve raiders against Rocko. quote:
Duck:
Reload Time: 4->3.5 |
I have not seen much of Duck but it seems to work reasonably well. You have to take advantage of its ability to run away and reload. I am wary of stealth buffing a somewhat underused factory in this way. quote:
Raven:
Max Velocity: 7.8->7.5
Turn Radius: 160->180
Health: 1100->1050 |
It is not feasible to change Raven turn radius because it is likely to break its limited ability to steer competently. As for a nerf in general I do not see a problem with smaller games and have not see enough replays for larger ones. quote:
Phoenix:
Cost: 360->430
Health: 700->1300 |
The general idea of this change might be ok although I am not sure if it needs to be done. quote:
Trident:
Health: 1500->1800 |
Probably reasonable although the magnitude is a bit much. quote:
Rapier:
Cost: 300->290 |
This seems like a stealth buff which will become apparent if we get Gunship meta. We have had large effective gunship balls in the past and not much has changed. I don't want to buff things while they are out of rotation. quote:
Blackdawn:
Cost: 900->1000 |
Is Blackdawn really a problem? I have not seen it be particularly effective. quote:
Brawler: Cost 760->800
Health: 2800->3300 |
Brawler is seldom used so I don't want to do a KingRaptor Buff because it will be impossible to tell how the unit responds. This change also makes it a bit more like Blackdawn. quote:
Hunter:
Damage:450->390
AoE: 128->156
Health: 1700->1600
Snake:
Cost: 350->290
Damage: 420->360
Range: 360->350
Reload Time: 4.5->4
Max Damage: 875->800
Urchin:
Health: 1000->900
Shredder:
Health: 1900->1700
Damage: 14->12 |
Got some replays and reasoning? Sea is able to have relatively large changes done to it but in the absence of an established game the changes have to be reasoned out with some aim in mind. quote:
Skeeter:
Health: 200->220
AoE: 8->64 |
Why the AoE? Scubber? quote:
Enforcer:
Cost: 1000->900 |
Probably reasonable. quote:
Claymore:
Health: 1000->1100
Damage: 800-750 |
It currently deals 1150 damage so I don't know where your numbers are from. quote:
Gremlin:
Range: 700->670 |
I don't want to mess with early air yet and this change would definitely do something. Shorter range would be the right nerf though. quote:
Razor's Kiss
Damage Reduction: 75%->66%(4x to 3x) |
This is inconsistent, anti Quant's Rule and I don't see Razor as OP. quote:
Wolverine:
Cost: 260->240 |
A buff is probably reasonable although I think something more interesting than cost could be done.
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quote:
Wolverine:
Cost: 260->240
A buff is probably reasonable although I think something more interesting than cost could be done. |
Fire on move. Allows it to act as "kinda" conventional skirmisher, which is something that cars lack. Plays to its existing strength of being one of few types of arty that can work vs mobiles.
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Can't Moderator simply be changed to its old version? It was really useful.
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And go back to zeus laughing at the whole fac?
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-On Sea Hunter: Currently the hunter is dominating boat use and seems very powerful. Unfortunately, it seems mostly as a counter-all in its current form. These nerfs seek to keep its new functionality (AoE/Riot), while allowing more units to fight against it effectively. Snake: Currently the snake is lacking in feel, and boats are lacking a distinct lighter weight unit. This change tries to help create a lighter weight snake that is better able to sneak by urchins and penetrate into enemy ground. Urchin: Given its ability to be made invulnerable to torpedoes, and incredibly long range, I feel it can be made more delicate such that it has a clearer weakness. Shredder: Right now it is just great AA that is stuck in the water. It should be brought a bit more in line with other AA, as boats are currently meant to be balanced relative to other units right now. Claymore: Right now its damage is a bit of a liability. Honestly, I would rather it used a cannon projectile and just used a timer. The frequency of its direct hits and the resulting close range explosions are problematic. The second number was correct though I accidentally copied the wrong number in the large post. Quite simply it doesn't need the damage. On a non-tweak level, I might recommend making it not detonate on collision and simply rely on a timer in order to make it more usable and flavorful/ Oh, and I do believe Blackdawn is that powerful. I believe it is so powerful that it is warping gunships ability to be more properly balanced, much in the same way many argue the Raven affects Airplanes. On that subject, it really should be the Brawler that is the tanky unit of the factory. Blackdawn already has speed and burst damage over it, the brawler should be the survivable unit.
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While many of these are targeting units that might be a problem, they are often targeting the wrong stat. The Pyro did not get a range increase, but rather more predictable shooting while moving, from its targeting change. I want to see the other units in the factory used, rather than it being the Pyro factory (Which it always was back before whatever changes to the script or engine caused it's weapon to not fire). However, right now nerfing the Pyro would just see nobody making the factory again. It is better with it being the pyro factory with sometimes other units, and people exploring that and seeing the meta evolve, than the factory never being made. I would still like to add a riot unit to Jumpbot (The current placeholder model was implemented by me expressly for that purpose!) like the changes to Spider, increasing the mainline units in the lineup and easing up the reliable on the Pyro to fill this role. Your nerfs to the Raven are tiny speed/manouverability changes that are unlikely to actually make any significant change. And losing 50 health? What difference do you expect that to make? The Pheonix changes, I suspect if we just make it hit it's target more reliably (As we did to the Pyro) it will totally change the use of the unit. While if we change the cost and hp it will still be finnicky to use, just heavier. Your Moderator change would also let it ourange and, at half speed, outpace, many riots and some skirms. This is a potential nightmare unit. I suspect this unit to very easily become like a hellish, perfectly accurate bouy, with the snipe-powers of a scrubber ball: especially with proper riot backup. Slowing it's target lets it kite better than almost anything, so even a small range change could make it hit a tipping point. We could possibly try this, that sort of nightmare skirm thing is what it's MEANT to do, as long as the list of units it can do that to is not too large. If Gremlin is the best AA (Which I think has little to do with it's range!) does that mean it needs to be nerfed or other AA needs to be buffed? I agree with Google that the right change to the Rocko if it is a problem is probably to reduce it's weapon velocity: Tick, Glaive, Warrior and Zeus are all very good against raiders so it's a natural weakness. Then again the whole reason it can be fielded early is because it's okay vs raiders. Without this, it would have to come later on in the game, possibly at a point where it's very vulnerable to Aoe (Which is what happens to it late ATM) and possibly not nearly as worth making as Zeus/Warrior or Scythe/Sniper. I like that there are factories and units that let you switch out of the raider game early and still apply pressure, Rocko does that and it makes the Cloakbot factory strong and versatile. Any change would need to not hurt that.
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quote:
I agree with Google that the right change to the Rocko if it is a problem is probably to reduce it's weapon velocity |
The veapon velocity nerf it against rogues, coms, and other medium-range things. It doesnt matter much for the approaching raiders, because very often, they simply have no other option than to run into the projectile to get in range. Dodging happens only in very small groups, when there are no more than 3-4 rockos. When you have a raider ball, they push each other into the shots. and have no room to dodge. I find it kinda funny how the devs are so happy to change unit names to something stupid all the time, but when it comes to stats, it almost like they are sacred and any change would ruin the whole balance. The units arent even close to being balanced, why so afraid to touch them?
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quote:
Oh, and I do believe Blackdawn is that powerful. I believe it is so powerful that it is warping gunships ability to be more properly balanced, much in the same way many argue the Raven affects Airplanes.
On that subject, it really should be the Brawler that is the tanky unit of the factory. Blackdawn already has speed and burst damage over it, the brawler should be the survivable unit.
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gunships have a number of role confusions and improper descriptions, not only has brawler less hp than bd, it also has a less assault like, more rioty weapon - bd can only actually work as a riot against things it can properly hit and raiders are not among these. another example of gunship funkyness is the banshee which has once against returned to beeing not used at all, since fireman stopped using them. they always had rather high hp for a raider and terrible dps for cost. they actually had or still have better hp/cost ratio than brawler. on the topic of bd, please do not ruin another unit. bd wasnt changed much or at all since i started playing, there havent been many complaints in all this time and bd always was not a generalist. it does what it does well, and sucks at other things, its fairly costly and clumsy enough so even a number of slow ground units like zeuses can deal with it. not sure why you evoke a comparison to ravens, probably because of com sniping ability? raven snipe is much easier to pull off, harder to defend against, and leaves you with a planes fac. bd also has to stick around for a while to do his trick which leaves plenty of time for ground units to shoot it. in terms of general usefulness, raven comes out clearly on top - its good against almost everything. bd is good against slow or very clustered units, structures, and thats about it. it costs 900 so you cant raid with it, it has no range at all, it is so slow that even most ground units can catch it. it is so slow that even with the many hp it has it will frequently die to even light aa.
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Blackdawn has actually received a fair number of complaints, they are all just ignored - almost completely undiscussed. On the subject of Brawler though, you say it is Rioty rather than assaulty. I contend it is simply bad. It cannot hit moving targets effectively, it cannot hit stationary targets effectively. Assuming perfect accuracy it has the same DPS as a blackdawn with radically higher aiming restrictions (sustained fire without the ability to fire and retreat. Currently the only thing it has going for it is range, and it might have one of the lowest functional damage outputs per metal in the game in return for it.
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