Any weapon should be able to fire at anything. Imbalance caused by aa becoming op due to its range can be corrected by reducing hitpoints of air units and aa damage. In RL air units are very squishy and mostly unarmored while in 0k they resemble flying tanks. Or fortresses. Another solution to op aa would be adding range dissipation to beams and larger deviation for projectiles, once again RL-like. There is no reason for aa weapon not being able to fire at land targets and the reason such restrictions exists is a superficial, gamey misconception. A RL example: Soviet ZSU "Shilka" that doubles as extremely effective anti-infantry.
+1 / -3
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quote:
There is no reason for aa weapon not being able to fire at land targets and the reason such restrictions exists is a superficial, gamey misconception. |
Except that huge ranges needed by AA would make them perfect-accuracy, high-damage artillery, so you'd not build anything but this super-unit. And if you upgrade other units' range to match? This isn't ZK anymore. Add to this that simulationism (the idea that game about cartoon robots shooting lasers should match reality) is a very bad balance argument. Finally, even real-life weapons aren't that universal. It is common for modern MBT's to have tens of kilometers of range with their cannons, yet they still aren't any good shooting aircraft with these guns for some odd reasons. Most AA missiles can be shot at ground targets as well, but mostly with badly reduced accuracy, and at much higher cost. Real life munitions don't come free.
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quote:
There is no reason for aa weapon not being able to fire at land targets |
you may join the engine devs to fix this.
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quote:
you may join the engine devs to fix this. |
Is not an engine restriction. Homework: Glaives and Avengers in presence of Defender Missile Turret.
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quote:
hur hurp! hurpa dup dup durp the Soviet ZSU "Shilka"! |
Your words and skill level make you pretty qualified to post about ZK balance #Irony #Jokes #YOLO #FlightBackToLA
+1 / -0
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Ye what Anarchid said. Also Mojj, meditate on your "do it yourself" position. According to it you should gtfo from here and make your own 0K. Alone. Also i suspect you do not even have a basic knowledge of C++ and some other script languages like Python which i have.
+0 / -5
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It proves only that you can google for scriptt-like pic and paste it. And also that you do not know definition of "suspicion".
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I want to see some test with slower planes (and maybe lower HP too), and removal of pure AA units from game, just to see what would happen. And a re-balance of sea is needed too.
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It's entirely a balance issue, as described: quote:
Except that huge ranges needed by AA would make them perfect-accuracy, high-damage artillery, so you'd not build anything but this super-unit. |
I actually rather like the idea of removing aa-only, but it would require some massive changes around air and anti-air. To the point where it might not be realistic.
+1 / -0
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A fine point. Modifying "already not realistic" to "might not be realistic" isnt an improvement in your opinion? Go read definition of "improvement" then. And read op again, where i propose dissipation and deviation.
+0 / -3
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pashadown, your aggressive tone won't get you anywhere in this discussion. Scale it back a bit so we can actually have this remain a discussion and not a flamefest.
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If AA could also fire at ground nobody would play air or build anything but AA. Enemy air? It dies to your AA. Enemy ground units? They die to your AA. You are air? You die to the enemy who builds only AA. You are ground? It makes more sense to build AA. Your enemies also build AA because it makes sense. After all, they are the highest range units, you can kite with them, and they have perfect accuracy. Zero-k would evolve into XTA. A monoculture of AA spam until enough of an economy is reached to build enough assaults to breach the AA spam. To counter this would require special damages, which I think go against the principles of Zero-K design (as far as i can remember them, admittedly) to have no special armour classes and special damage classes that get intrinsic damage bonuses or decreases based on what it is fired on.
+1 / -0
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"Not realistic" as in "too much work to ever be done". When there are much higher priorities anyway. And I agree with @MauranKilom, a patronizing tone will get you nowhere.
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I feel a lot of people missed the main point paShadoWn made. Along with letting AA target ground it would need a big damage nerf along with an air HP nerf. This means AA wouldn't really be that good at taking out ground because of its low damage compared to units designed for ground units. The AA could also not be tracking for ground units due to the target not being against a clear background like the sky or something. If the air HP nerf means that normal ground units can kill it easier, make them fly higher because it is mainly only AA that has a cylindrical range. (But maybe leave banshees flying low because I think they need a nerf and by making them vulnerable to non AA would stop those pesky early raids)
+2 / -1
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What about removing "AA" entirely, and weakening air to go along with that? The current AA feels very artificial and special damage-like. There are also lots of flex-AA units: banisher, defender, puppy (for gunships), slasher, and (in the current update) racketeer. This would also require air to have massive changes including less HP and a higher flying height (and diving when bombing), but it might be beneficial in the end. The (major) downside is that it would take a ridiculous amount of work, since you have to rebalance every air unit (about 25 units), remove or repurpose all AA (another 10 or so units), and rebalance all the flex-AA (which adds another 15-35 units). Lots of game mechanics would need to be changed entirely.
+4 / -0
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First, three things: 1) At least some of the dev team wants to move towards land-air integration (more flex AA, less reliance on dedicated AA as the Only Thing you build against air). This hopes to increase interaction of air units with land ones and reduce or eliminate things like "air is the thing you rush at start then switch fac once the enemy gets enough AA up." 2) Simply letting AA shoot land with minimal modifications, however, is not going to accomplish this, or at least not without introducing new problems that we really do not need, like >800 range perfectly accurate skirmishers. 3) Realism arguments are almost always completely irrelevant.   paShadoWnquote:
Another solution to op aa would be adding range dissipation to beams and larger deviation for projectiles |
Why do we want to make AA worse versus air just so we can balance it vs land? quote:
There is no reason for aa weapon not being able to fire at land targets and the reason such restrictions exists is a superficial, gamey misconception. |
Which is why RL SAM systems of all kinds are popular as anti-personnel or anti-armor weapons. Wait...    cortezthekillerquote:
If the air HP nerf means that normal ground units can kill it easier, make them fly higher because it is mainly only AA that has a cylindrical range. |
This goes directly against the desired land-air integration. In effect, it's the inverse of the problem being discussed: "AA only works vs air" "AA is the only thing that works vs air"
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I guess I should have been more specific, if the combined nerf to AA and air allows non-AA units to be more effective against air than dedicated AA then you could make air fly higher. I do agree that non-AA units should be better against air than they currently are. Letting AA hit ground and giving air HP and AA DPS a nerf should mean that both AA and non AA can kill both air and ground but each would be better at their respective roles. This, I think, is what we want.
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Air issues in ZK are mostly because planes fly artificial lower to make selecting (playing with) them easier. If it is like in real life, targeting needs to think of planes as like "be 3x as high over ground" and "5x more spaced". -> It would fix units like Moderator, but newbes would think (why can it attack gunships, but not planes?) IRL planes can fly close together to confuse radars - make them think there is only 1. Or fly low to be radar-invisible, but zk radar can even see ground units.
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Planes fly low so there is some soft counter interaction with ground.
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