Scallop weapons

So in the description it states "... armed with impact explosives for underwater use and quadruple shotgun when on land". However, in the water it uses both the shotgun and the impact explosives and when it is tossed by a lobster in the water, it initially fires shotguns and then as it sinks it fires the impact explosives which gives a massive amount of damage for a 280m unit. About 400 DPS total - (261 shotgun + 128 explosive) against a combined underwater + surface fleet/aircraft.

The Claymore, a 300m unit, has 113 DPS and only 160 more HP than the Scallop - 1260 to 1100 so it is completely out-classed.

The Corsair, a 240m unit, has 117 DPS and only 250 hp more than the Scallop - 1350 to 1100 and it cannot shoot underwater so again it is completely out-classed. It is faster than the Scallop, but that is completely negated by a single Lobster. Plus the Corsair cannot defend itself at all against Scallops walking underwater.

Additionally the only air unit than can directly target underwater units is the Raven.

Here are 2 different options to balance Scallops:

1. Increase cost to about 500m plus Lobsters cost 500m.

2. When in the water/air Scallops should be unable to fire shotguns and Lobsters can stay the same cost.

In addition to 1 of the 2 options above, give 1 more aircraft unit the ability to target submerged units, 2 gunships the same, and all except the Mariner, Envoy and Zephyr ship units the same.

I wonder if easier solution is to stop Lobster throwing Lobster. Then, a mechanic that makes sense... Lobster has an amount of lob power to share amongst units being thrown. If you want to throw more units the same distance or the same units further you need more Lobsters.

Rapidly firing single units opens another whole can of worms. The longer reload, Itmauve mentioned, would be required to prevent other broken tactics.

Personally, I think increasing costs or removing the mid-air units' ability to fire are better options.

Scorpion is a pretty overrated unit IMO.

Another stupid aspect of scallops dps is in AA. They are better AA in water than the AA dedicated angler - especially when thrown up with a lobster.

So basically the Amph. factory beats ships, hover, gunships and airplanes on a water map and no other factory is even viable on a water map.

I have a hunch: scallop is op due to game size and map. I need some data before I push it as any sort of truth. Here are some facts I base my hunch off of:

1.) Scallops have a Time to Rise. Lobster partially negates this. Lobster cost increase would not help on low rise time maps and would make amphs lose harder on high rise time maps if the price is increased too much. (Peral springs I believe is an example of ah high TTR map)

2.) High player density lowers risk to one's self and effectively makes early scallop-lobster a go to strategy.
2a.) Map influences such as front size and interconnectiveness impacts hover/ship viability.

3.) Like point 1, daggers eventually become unable to hit scallops at all (or ducks for that matter) which forces hover to go pure claymore on these maps.

4.) Sirens are not a good scaling unit due to massive colvol and tendency to friendly fire themselves. Hunters on the other hand are too weak and cannot fire upwards at scallops.

TL;DR: zk sea has a unit component and a map component of the problem.

quote: Unless other factories are viable for water maps, besides the 4 I listed, it's a true statement.

I have seen plenty of people plop ship, hover and planes on water maps to good effect. So no, it's not.

It might be closer to true to say that "in most team games on a sea map you are better off if your team has at least one amph player".

Right, I read your statement as "no other factory besides amph is viable on a water map". Sorry for the misunderstanding.

It depends a bit on what map you are talking about. I doubt amph beats ships 1v1 on Aurelian.

quote: I believe you simply disagree that amph is the best of the 4.

I'm not even sure I disagree with that statement, but I do disagree with how much better I think you think it is.

quote: no micro or counter will save you, unless your team wins land before you lose sea.

Not voting for sea maps or actively voting against sea maps is an option. Every time you vote for Folsom or SSB, you know someone is going to be facing a clan or a good player going scallop lobster. Save your self the misery of being that guy and don't vote for deep sea maps. Maps consisting of mostly shallow water are superior to deep sea in that scallops can be attacked along the way by air and ducks cannot gain immunity to all nonUW weapons.

I will never understand why people consistently vote in SSB or other deep sea maps over land maps when it always ends the same way.