Try and work as a team? Try and communicate with team mates? PENALTY!

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[G0G0]Dancer

7 years ago

http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/439630

gets me penalized and muted?

Everyone is allowed to make mistakes, but when your allies are repeatedly requesting/drawing on maps, and pinging targets.

If you ignore them completely, and even loose track of units that are bombarding your allies sumo, they should get annoyed with that.

If you try and communicate with your allies, and the allies refuse to listen, you can get penalized for trying to get their attention.

Thanks Hoko

Moral of the story, Zero-k doesn't encourage team work, it actively discourages it.

Hence the "mute" button, cast on players TRYING to work as a team.

+3 / -3

Shyrka

7 years ago

We certainly didn't a good work in that battle :(

I myself concentrated too much in expanding in the North and forgot to support the center. I didnt even realize when that tank platoon leveled my main base.

I understand that you get frustrated when your team mates perform badly. I sometimes ignore the instructions and commands that higher players give to me in the battle because I am too focused in some task and lack the multi attention that the situation requires. But I never do that on purpose to annoy a fellow player.

Sometimes you ask for things that -believe it or not- some of us can't do quickly/efficiently enough. Things that probably you could do easily if you wasn't busy in another place. Don't get angry for that.

We are not refusing to listen, we are simply overloaded by the situation and unable to answer properly. I can't talk for another person, but that is my case, I swear!

+3 / -0

hokomoko

7 years ago
(edited 7 years ago)

Part of working as a team is not being an arse to your teammates and understanding that all parties share the blame in a loss.
Failing to behave according to these two simple principles means that you can't work in a team, so I gave you a warning.
Instead of listening, you chose to continue with your behaviour, so the simplest fix the situation was to mute you for an hour (very lenient considering you have a two digit number of similar reports).

Inability to behave in a civilised manner <-> Being able to chat.
Choose one.

+3 / -2

[G0G0]Dancer

7 years ago

I understand people are typically overloaded with tasks in Zero-k.

That is a big part of the learning, (and brain growth that these types of games stimulate), you should still push your limits (like working out in a gym).

I'm not angry at people for screwing up, making mistakes, and not seeing the whole map.

North was doing really well much of that game, and for that i commend you and the work you did.

But sometimes (like on middle) when i ping and tell allies to simply fall back to their factory, (so i can have my sumo+felons, slide in behind enemy army and sandwich them), to which the ally pushes with infiltrators and the rest of his army and suicides everything, followed by allied recluses hitting my army. That is a bit beyond not paying attention, and borderline trolling. Once that happened, i knew that middle was lost, and south was in trouble (as enemy mid forces moved down there).

Tunnel vision is dangerous for zero-k players, it is something i had to work and focus on to get out of.

Trying out a few games as air can help with that (since you should be watching the whole map if your playing air, not just 1 front)

Players too often do not communicate in this game, and that is just bad in general since it is "multiplayer" and "team game".

My messages in game can sometimes be interoperated as "short" or "aggressive", but that is because i don't stop playing in order to type/teach information to my allies. I do it as quickly as possible so I can get back to micro/macroing my forces/builders.

If a player spends the time to ping, or give valuable information, and that player is known as a hard fighter, then they are taken their own time to give information to allies and help them out.

This should not be penalized, but should be encouraged.

A loss in a good fight, is no big deal since it was a good fight. But when allies ignore messages and loose entire armies to obvious things, then allies should get annoyed since that is "feeding".

If i am playing shield ball, and my enemy keeps sending units at me 1-2 at a time, i would expect my enemies allies to get annoyed with them because they are growing my army, and eco and handing me the game. And i don't even really like those games, because there is no challenge, when a Wyvern blows up my shieldball, im like "AAAHHHH", but im also like... "gotta play better GoGo, you were asking for that bunching those units up so tight"

+1 / -0

Orfelius

7 years ago
(edited 7 years ago)

This is not about your ability to communicate with others.

Your punishiment is about your hostile attitude towards them.

Mind you: you can express your frustration with teammates just don't be an ass about it.

+1 / -0

SnuggleBass

7 years ago

Dancer you yourself are someone that has found a lot of difficulty working within other people's strategic frameworks. When people say expand, you turtle. This doesn't stop you from having very strong opinions about what other people should be doing.

quote:
But sometimes (like on middle) when i ping and tell allies to simply fall back to their factory, (so i can have my sumo+felons, slide in behind enemy army and sandwich them), to which the ally pushes with infiltrators and the rest of his army and suicides everything, followed by allied recluses hitting my army. That is a bit beyond not paying attention, and borderline trolling. Once that happened, i knew that middle was lost, and south was in trouble (as enemy mid forces moved down there).

His attack on the commander with fleas and infi didn't work, but it was a very understandable mistake to make. He had the com out of position, he had the army ready to go, he just didn't correctly realise how weak fleas are to even token support. You told him to fall back without reasoning, but his plan was already in motion, he'd purchased the infi, he'd got the commander out of position. His plan didn't fail because it wasn't your ambush, and you provided no compelling reasoning for why it wasn't a good idea.

This was not 'borderline trolling'. You've lost sight of just how much crap goes on in a game. He failed to read and follow a single order from someone not in his lane who he probably knows little about who provided very little reasoning while he had his own intentions and the enormous bait of a troll com dangling around his infiltrators. Not to mention it was a 7v8. Most "pros" (including myself) find it difficult to keep up with that level of activity while also reading chat.

Your "communications" were all orders at best, and you raging at worst.

Your sumo took negligible damage from his recluse. You had a repair squad in proximity. That whole issue was a non-event. It cost you nothing and you used it as a casus belli to attack him further for the remainder of the game. It's not intuitive to a newer player that their units would harm yours when firing at an opponent. Especially with units that aren't AoE.

Your demands are authoritarian, you are no champion for a team's effective communication, you're just not getting what you want and you're very poor at dealing with that.

+0 / -0

Aquanim

7 years ago
(edited 7 years ago)

You're not getting muted for trying to work as a team and communicate, you're getting muted for telling your teammates "fuck you" and ranting about their failings in allchat after they resign.

and then ranting further about the rest of your team for building in range of a bertha that I'm not even sure existed at the time that decision was made

aaaand then ranting about your teammates not making anti when it wouldn't have been done in time anyway by the time you said it

+0 / -0

[G0G0]Dancer

7 years ago

Aquanim.

The "fuck you" was directed towards the player that...

Assaulted a troll comander + reapers + felon + convicts with flees and infiltrators and some recluses, after ally told him to fall back, and wait. And after i came to the aid, bombarded my units with recluse fire.

(it was also in game, not general chat)

The Code of Conduct states

Do NOT

Go all-in against the wishes of your team.

Code of conduct also states

DO

Play team games as if you will play to the end.

Cooperate with your team.

Player resigned 23 minutes early after his going "all in" failed, even though his team-mates said not to.

How much explaining is necessary? Is it ok to pause the game and type out a detailed explanation as to why they shouldn’t go "all in" and why they should fall back? (because they are alone vs 3 well armed players)

Why is it ok for other players to violate the Code of Conduct as long as they dont say anything to anyone?

And if my comments are interpreted as "hostile", Penalty hammer incoming?

Is this why no one communicates in this game?

It seems it is safer to violate all the rules of the CoC as long as you don't communicate with anyone.

I communicate A LOT in team games, as you probably notice.

Even a joke such as
"how many times do you have to tell your allies to build anti nuke before they do it? trick question, they wont build one",
which i found to be funny in the context of the game, and they had their reasons for not building them. (tunnel visioning and not enough communication, and lack of resources/build power available), is then penalized based on "interpretation"

So Aquanim - "ranting about their failings in allchat after they resign", So, we cant talk about what we did wrong after a game is over?

+0 / -0

DeinFreund

7 years ago
(edited 7 years ago)

I also regularly encounter the problem of teammates completely ignoring chat/markers in casual team games, including many long time players(Just the fact that Firepluk is always having the chat in mind is why I prefer him as teammate over many other players, even when trolling).

But whenever I really need somebody to help me out I'll pause the game and address them - Instead of throwing around insults(Last time I did it was after having >2 nukes stockpiled and still not getting a scout from the air player). I wouldn't mind if you went as far as pausing the game on every ignored marker/message. This gives all those overloaded people time to realize what's going on (should help newbies learn) and should improve the team play. I'm tempted to do it myself, but apparently most of the team players don't actually want team play and rather be overloaded without pause(They'll kick you for trying to communicate).

My hope lies in Matchmaking with party system. Queue up with people who listen and let the lone wolves fight on their own. Casual teams in zk is already far more competitive than in most other games, don't expect randoms to become your best team mates.

Regarding penalties: Cut the insults. Just look at your chat message and don't press enter. You'll be fine and you don't lose anything.

+1 / -0

Aquanim

7 years ago
(edited 7 years ago)

quote:
you're getting muted for telling your teammates "fuck you" and ranting about their failings in allchat after they resign.

I don't really give a damn about the context

[G0G0]Dancer this just isn't acceptable no matter what.

[Spoiler]

+0 / -0

[G0G0]Dancer

7 years ago

Well i am pretty sure i said "fuck you" in the game because of what i said before hand.

Interesting there has been no paste bin about post game discussion.

Also...

Explaining to ally about what to do, and what was going on
http://imgur.com/a/UZrDL

Ally pushes/stuns regardless
http://imgur.com/a/7ag7o

Ally goes "all in" with literally (yes LITERALLY) all of his combat units. so if thats not all in, im not sure what is?
http://imgur.com/a/c6zxg

After 0 communication from any of the allies on mid which i came to help them out, i said
http://imgur.com/a/y9i7d

Player abandons mid to loose everything vs a crabe and hermits, goes afk, and after base is annihilated then resigns.
Player Hokomoko whos base is right next to the action continues to abandon mid, ignore requests from his allies for aid, and sends his units to one of the furthest points from the action. Even when his allies are requesting for him to use his snipers on the enemy next to them...
http://imgur.com/a/wp20W
Note: the green arrows are me comen up to mid to help (working as a team) cause allies needed my help, the blue ones are him moving his snipers away, ignoring allies pleas for help

CoC
DO
Cooperate with your team (cough cough)

And here we go!
The big "fuck you"
"you're getting muted for telling your teammates "fuck you" and ranting about their failings in allchat after they resign."
http://imgur.com/a/IHpQ1

Im sorry. but according to the replay.. which doesn't lie... so far in this game.

Went all-in against the wishes of your team.

Did not Play team game as if you will play to the end. (you give up before the 50% mark)

Did not Cooperate with your team.

That is 3 Violations of Code of Conduct, that deserves a "fuck you" in my books, since i am not a moderator, and cant penalize a player for CoC violations.
"fuck you" - Expression of Contempt

Funny thing is... after i said "fuck you" the player ACTUALLY began to communicate with his allies, talking about tactics and such. So that just teaches thats the only way to get threw to these people who only care about the "talk nicely" portion of teamplay and the CoC?

This also showed that his "resign" wasnt because he had to leave, just he didn't want to play the battle anymore (clearly a premature resign, and thus a violation of CoC)

Did not Play team game as if you will play to the end.

I noticed no penalties given to Hokomoko and Pyrostasis.

Oh and in response to Aquanim:
--"I don't really give a damn about the context [G0G0]Dancer this just isn't acceptable no matter what."--
Read the above

--"Nothing your teammate did was an "all-in"."--
Read the above, watch the replay and look at a screen-shot maybe?

--"He coordinated with his team to the best of his ability and while his resignation was premature that is not generally held to be a CoC offense."--
Literally not saying anything about what your doing is "coordinated with his team to the best of his ability" ?

--It doesn't take any "interpretation" to see that what you said to him after the resignation was "hostile".--
Read the above

--I don't think the antinuke thing would have got you warned on its own, and for all I know it didn't contribute at all.--
Then why did Hokomoko penalize me after the game, and not say a damned thing during the game? Maybe because he was busy ignoring his allies plea for help, keeping his units on hold fire as he walked passed the enemy that his team mates were begging him to snipe...

So... can we just remove the following from the CoC?

DO
Play team games as if you will play to the end.
Cooperate with your team.

DO NOT

Go all-in against the wishes of your team.

+0 / -0

Aquanim

7 years ago
(edited 7 years ago)

Okay, my time is being wasted now. Dancer, either modify your behaviour or I imagine you're likely to get modactioned again.

I don't care about about your long-winded explanations because whatever happened in the game is completely irrelevant to whether anything you said was appropriate. I watched the game and drew my own conclusions.

If you seriously think that other players in this game broke the CoC, I advise you to take it up with another moderator. If you're just using it as a smokescreen for "they did it so I can do it too", that's an invalid argument anyway.

[Spoiler]

+1 / -1

Aquanim

7 years ago
(edited 7 years ago)

tl;dr: report Hokomoko and/or Pyro to another moderator for breaking the CoC or stop wasting my time by alleging they did.

Even if you do, that wouldn't make abusing either of them okay.

+0 / -0

Senaven

7 years ago

I think most important thing in that chat is that

Jummy write!!!! Its so rare.
Close this sad thread. There is no apology about being so rude. I admit on himself as well. I had many times when i really deserved mute for my trash taking as well. And for my rude words as well. So this trash thread about one hour mute because 'Fuck you' is just such baby crying like my crying in team games about trollcom morphers and pluks. :/

+0 / -2

Firepluk

7 years ago

quote:
Part of working as a team is not being an arse to your teammates and understanding that all parties share the blame in a loss.

said a a kindergarten teacher...

+2 / -0

Connetable

7 years ago
(edited 7 years ago)

"Trying out a few games as air can help with that (since you should be watching the whole map if your playing air, not just 1 front)"

That's true.

EDIT: actually gogo you should keep in mind that some allies may well not be very good at english..

+1 / -0

hedgehogs

7 years ago
(edited 7 years ago)

[Spoiler]
TLDR:
No assholes.
That means listening as well.

+1 / -0

Shaman

7 years ago

If I can figure out how to get this mutator to work, I'd like to create a room for testing Commshare out. I think those who are tired of a lack of teamwork might enjoy it.

Sadly infra doesn't want to work with me :/

+3 / -1

mojjj

7 years ago

it was a very frustrating game. dancer tried his best, and he is in fact a heavy team game carrier.

it is just very frustrating when tell allies 3x times to antinuke after nuke discovery, then the obviously undefended main force gets nuked as expected bc there is no anti, then the allies get the 2nd nuke - one nuke build cycle later.

+5 / -0

Aquanim

7 years ago

quote:
it was a very frustrating game. dancer tried his best, and he is in fact a heavy team game carrier.

it is just very frustrating when tell allies 3x times to antinuke after nuke discovery, then the obviously undefended main force gets nuked as expected bc there is no anti, then the allies get the 2nd nuke - one nuke build cycle later.

sum of relevance to mute: zero

+0 / -0

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