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Knight was mistakenly rebuffed

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4 years ago
I want to talk about such a unit as Knight, it prompted me to this series of defeats against this unit. I think he was very increase in last patch and now he has properties that should not possess.

I want to start with the role of such a unit as a scorpion in the game, the following should be noted, a scorpion in solitary form, this is a rather weak unit, to get a scorpion you need to build a special factory and after spending some time to get your first scorpion. He is weak, because there are many combinations that can resist him alone (widows, just sub-artillery (rogue))) all this can withstand one scorpion. This is followed by the following mechanics, as soon as we get two scorpions, this group becomes one of the strongest combinations in the game, it defeats almost any combination of the opponent, is able to autonomously act on any part of the map without support and inflict colossal damage. This applies to three and four scorpions and so on. To counter such a group can be very limited ways, such as ultamatums. Such a group is expensive, it comes close to a bertha or even two or nuke at a price, but it is also effective. Nothing in this game should just counteract the scorpions, do you want to kill the scorpions? Be prepared to spend resources, time and your microskill just like always has been and should be.

I want you to consider this situation:


It shows a simple battle of two scorpions against knights. 13x Knight (4550 metal) vs 2x scorps (6k metal). Scorpions lose, 4 knights (1400 metal) remain alive. I want to remind you that scorpions need to build an additional factory. Knights can also get support in the form of very cheap invisibility, as well as raiders, speeding up the killing of scorpions.

Decide for yourself honestly it or not.

I want to show you this:



Funny?

I also suggest enjoying a few more selections:
7x Knight (2 450‬ metal) vs 1x Dante (3500 metal)



5x Knight (1 750 metal) vs 1x Ulti (2 000 metal)


By the way, the role of the knight it Assault, here is an example of how the assault behaves
6x Minotaur (5100 metal) vs 2x Scorp (6k metal)


I want to emphasize one feature of assaults, raiders can raid them, but raiders are not able to attack knights, they just suicide. All that confronts them at least somehow is sub-artillery or artillery, but knights have easy access to invisibility through the cons.

10 glaive can kill Minotaur, 8 will remain alive
10 glaive vs 1 knight, 2 will remain alive

+3 / -5
In my opinion Knight should counter Scorpion and Dante in a direct fight; if the Knight's single-target EMP weapon isn't good against a single expensive unit with low HP for cost like Scorpion/Dante it is probably bad against nearly everything (as it has been for years). Similar story for com and Ultimatum.

I also disagree with the notion that a ball of multiple Scorpions is entitled to be any more of a game deciding threat than a similar metal expenditure in other reasonable compositions.

It might be too good against raiders though.
+12 / -0

4 years ago


IDK, scorpion just doesn't do well when overwhelmed. It's power is acting as a light riot(high DPS) killing small groups of units sequentially or ambushing heavier units to stunlock them into a kill. High tech units(expensive units) aren't expected to be spammable to victory, often having pitiful DPS/cost compared to any lighter unit.

I haven't played around with knight post buff much. But what I really want is a model change and a name change to 'Wizzard' where it holds a staff up high and uses that as the aim point, so it doesn't have trouble shooting over pebbles.
+2 / -0
Good Scorpion play would start the battle with both the Scorpions on one side of the Knight formation and chain the stuns. If you don't use cloak to set up the fight you're discarding much of Scorpion's value.

Dante has longer range and slightly higher speed than Knight, it can kite Knights and should not lose to them. If you put the Dante on attack move instead of using the wrong micro Knights won't be able to hit it.

It's scary that Knight moves faster than a Recon comm, but the comm can jump away.

Knights aren't really expensive enough to be a good target for Ulti.

So I think the video examples are a bit contrived. A video of Knights against raiders might be what needs to be seen.

Cloaked Knight ball is probably one of the strongest things you can put on the ground. It takes a ton of raiders to rush it down. Knight can survive a Phantom shot, a Likho bomb or two Snitches (barely). Lance can oneshot them with a solid hit, but Hoverfac has no access to cost-effective decloaking tools (Halberd?). Imp can stun them. So, combine the units of 2 or 3 factories and you can fight a cloaked Knight ball. Good luck against the Glaives they are building to kill everything you send to fight the Knights.
+2 / -0


4 years ago
Cloaked Knight ball was probably fairly good before the range buff though, its just con area cloak change that has made it accessible.
+0 / -0
- long ranged
- costs ~400
- kites commanders
- kills riots
- kills assaults
- kills raiders


Knight is basically now a walking version of Mace. A bit cheaper, a bit slower, a bit tankier, but generally yeah.
+1 / -0
4 years ago
I don't think Minotaurs and Knights should be directly compared at all. Although both are assaults, there's rather few similarities in their practical usage.
+3 / -0
4 years ago
Knight is listed as an assault but is really an assault/riot in practice.

Scorpion is designed for infiltration or hit and run tactics, it is not designed to attack large groups of assaults head on.

The Dante is a riot unit, fighting spread out assaults isn't its strength.

Also, all striders are very power dense units with very high health, and you're supposed to take advantage of that by pulling them back for repairs when their health is low. That allows you to win the attrition war over time. The're not supposed to fight to the death, nor to fight unsupported.
+3 / -0
If the Knight is overpowered at the moment, should its speed be nerfed to make skirmishers even better at dealing with them?

In my opinion, what EErankAdminAnarchid is saying is partially wrong. I read the wiki to refresh my memory. The Knight is not only a bit tankier because it has 2400 HP and the Mace has 1300 HP. The former has a lightning weapon and the latter fires a continuous beam. As far as I know, the weapons aren't extremely different in practice though.
+0 / -0
4 years ago
Not enough grounds for rebalancing. So far there's one contested replay showing Knights' alleged OPness and a few simulations. Rather than specific instances, are there sufficient counterplays for late game cloaked Knight balls? Is there an issue with early/mid game cloaked Knights, or does the issue lie within Conjurer cloakfield and the lack of need for Iris investment?
+0 / -0
4 years ago
quote:
If the Knight is overpowered at the moment, should its speed be nerfed to make skirmishers even better at dealing with them?


I think Knight still really sucks vs skirmisher due to its low speed and should not be even slower.
Knight is not really op in my opinion but I agree that is does a bit too well against raiders for being an assault unit.
I could see a slight shift to more alpha dmg and higher reload to compensate this problem.

e.g. old -> new
dmg: 240 -> 290
emp: 600 -> 725
reload: 2.2 -> 2.8
dps: 109 dmg + 273 emp -> 104 dmg + 259 emp

Can now 1-shot Bandits, but is notably worse against most other raiders
+1 / -0
I think the Knight is fine as is. In the current meta the main use of assault units is eating damage with their face, Knight isn't very good at that because his cost-health ratio isn't great, in addition to being slow and easy to kite. The lighting gun is one of the best assault weapons and makes up for that. If its nerfed so that it no longer works as a semi-riot, the Knight loses a lot of its usefulness. Also, Knight's current kit helps make it unique compared to other assaults.

Maybe rename it to assault/riot, as it definitely feels like a hybrid.

+2 / -0
USranknop
4 years ago
I'll believe Knight is op when people stop using shield balls.
+0 / -0


4 years ago
If we need to nerf Knights effectiviness against raiders, just make them slightly less accurate. The current 1.8 degrees inaccuracy is already enough to make Knight miss Glaives and other small targets in larger ranges so increasing to to something like 2.2 or 2.5 degrees would have decent effect.
+0 / -0
RUrankizirayd Multiplayer B807311 14 on Enceladus 1 really got you horror flashbacks!
+1 / -0
edit:nothing interesting.



+0 / -0
4 years ago
+0 / -0

4 years ago
nice misplays
+5 / -0
4 years ago
why do u yolo in/suicide so hard?
+0 / -0


4 years ago
Scorpions aren't supposed to be the ultimate anti-army assault unit, they're supposed to be a sneaky raiding+defeat in detail unit with some self defence capability. The fact they can currently fight entire armies by themselves is a misfeature imo and they need a nerf.

Knights are very slow and somewhat short ranged. Before cloakfac got the conjurer cloak they were pretty useless. That has been a bigger buff to Knights than the actual Knight buffs! :D

quote:
- kills raiders

It's pretty bad against raiders. Not cost effect at all.

Knights are really easy to kite, just have some advance raiders to pop the cloak then have your skirms skirm.
+0 / -0
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