GoogleFrog did veh a bit of a disservice here i think (and by extension my line of argument).

few scorchers were made at all in the beginning, and expansion was slower than it had to be (assisted fac with con despite building with com at same time, not using con to expand). he even managed to fall behind on expansion. switched into ravagers when the only units you had were a koda and a panther.

and still that gunship switch probably saved you.

Some quite good examples of what those discussing LV vs HT are on about here.

Sheer tankieness of HT leads to little or no attrition (even when disarmed then scorcher mobbed) and the homing missiles of Banisher completely gut LV charges.

Klon you should play games of Veh against Tank. Showing us how it's done would be more useful than drawing buckets out of my well of mistakes and putting them up as evidence that Veh is OP.

That makes it 3-1 in favour of HT which is not a result I was expecting. It could be argued that while the elo was close, Lauri is a tanks specialist while both Klon and GF are not known for their LV play (though I was surprised how good Klon was, since he usually tends towards attrition over mobility).

So at this point I'm thinking team LV need to either provide a scenario that controls for the variables that are (presumably) claimed responsible for these results, or cede that the match-up is at the very least balanced (if not favoured for HT).

Klon? Drone? Anyone else?

Yeah CCR is LV all the way. That's more the map though.

Sample size is small, but the chances of this occurring assuming equal competence when LV has an advantage over HT? Quite low. Still not conclusive, but unfavourable.

Besides whether the matchup is numerically imbalanced, another question is whether it is healthy in terms of unit variety and degenerate strategies.

It might be nice if Tank had a little more variety in terms of units which are stronger than "niche", in this and other matchups.

EDIT: I haven't really watched this game so maybe it has a bunch of Panthers, Goliath, Pillager and Tremor and I'm gonna look like an idiot.

EDIT 2: With regard to the current conversation, it suprises me not at all that Lauri, as a tank specialist, would have a good winrate in the most common matchup for that factory.

About the healthyness of the matchup, at least I personally love how it plays out minus Domi (I dislike using it, dislike playing against it).

Aggression, econ and mobility vs defence, survivability and cost effeciency. Like zerg vs protoss. It's partly the asymmetry that makes it my favourite matchup regardless of the side I'm playing on.

I feel like tanks relying heavily on assaults is very thematic. I like that tank has no skirmisher but has the tools make things work regardless. You lack certain hard counters, but have slightly more generalist assaults to compensate. This fosters playstyles quite different to other factories, which is great for ZK in my opinion.

quote: Pure LV vs HT is quite simple. If LV doesn't win before midgame (when pack of 3-5 reapers is up and running around), next they have almost no chances/tools

you can always switch factory tho. veh should normally have the economic advantage and can just make whatever it pleases to counter those reapers, for example more reaper.

quote: Early game depends on how well LV player avoids attrition from Kodachi

a single scorcher beats a single koda. for the koda to inflict any kind of attrition things have to go horribly wrong for the veh player.

not sure about the cloakiebots either, seems to me that tanks can deal fairly well with almost everything cloakie has to offer. scythes are no problem at all for reapers and koda seems to be quite alright vs them. they just slaughter glaives too. (at least they have a fair amount of leeway unlike in the veh matchup)

Tank was originally designed, with the defensive con, to just expand really aggressively, take a lot of territory, making minimal defenses since the Cons can shrug off a single raider or scout, and are like mini-commanders.

Meanwhile it spends a minimal amount on very fast, survivable raiders which focus on ensuring the enemy cannot expand naked, forcing LLT's or defensive raiders while not needing as many itself, giving it the eco advantage.

Basically by being raider-immune early, it rushes into the midgame, forces both players to gobble up the map (While preventing pure naked expand from the enemy) and transition into assaults and riots, where it has the advantage. The weakness of this is if the enemy can kill your early raiders and naked expand: Your expansion is necessarily slower and more expensive since you're paying for welder guns.

It can still kind of do this vs many factories where Welders beat their raiders, and spamming cons in team games is very viable into the midgame. However, Scorcher just shits on Welders, so you can't do this in LV, which is why we've focused on changing Panther, Koda and Banisher all to counter Scorchers.

That's all probably pretty far from the current state of the meta, but that was the original design when I first thought about Tank start viability.