Forking from the 'Things I dont like about ZK' thread - quote:
The Sumo is a horrible, horrible unit. It counters all low density land with absolute brutality. In team games, mostly anyone in the top 10 – Rafal, Fireman, Wolas etc – will rush these invariably, and they are almost always incredibly effective.
Unlike the Golly – which is specialized and interesting – the Sumo simply counters everything on land, with a few exceptions. It has anti swarm, MASSIVE up close DPS, mobility, resilience… its completely boring and hugely effective. More than anything else, I see this unit teach noobs to stop using little, low density units and just spam heavies in teamgames and it is really awful. If this thread only has one effect, I would hope it would be to look at the Sumo and specialize the damn thing, which atm is basically the only unit outside the RPS counter structure.
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Sumo: too generalist. More difficult to counter than to use. Overly effective against many of its counters due to combination of DPS, HP & Jump (dodging EMP for example, or jumping right on top of skirmishing recluses, or carbonizing rapier/banshit swarms with epic DPS). Encourages new players in teamgames to just rush heavies, because small units will just get squashed. The Golly is now a model heavy - specialized but useful (owns heavy units, countered by swarms.) Sumo likewise needs to be specialised. Discuss.
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My suggestion: Replace heatrays with a different type of weapon. I think somthing that emphasises AoE rather than DPS would work better if the Sumo were to be specialized toward anti-swarm.
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I like that Sumo has to get close to a target to utilize its full DPS potential (heatrays). However, Sumo without jump would be useless - and I love to squash small units :) Maybe it would suffice to tweak the turret speed? Slower turret speed makes tracking of fast-moving units more difficult. -> jump in - squash a few units. However, surviving units pose a significant threat!
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If I made it shoot disruptor beams, would it have synergy with Jack/Pyro? (at the expense of stealing Moderator's role, most likely) I'm quite annoyed that I can't think of a single AoE weapon that would match its super thin arms...
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quote:
I think somthing that emphasises AoE rather than DPS would work better if the Sumo were to be specialized toward anti-swarm.
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This only cuts into sumo's antiassault capacity by removing the antiheavy gun. It will still mass murder skirmishers with jump. quote:
I'm quite annoyed that I can't think of a single AoE weapon that would match its super thin arms... |
hmg
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Give it a shorter range flamethrower? Dual flamethrowers.
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+1 for flamethrower. And rename lab to FIERY HELL!
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flamer is unfit because antiheavy and overused in lab. disrupter probably makes it into a huge perfectly accurate jumping buoy, which sounds awful.
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Reduce jump range increase stomp damage (in fact increasing impulse sounds much more awesome). So it would die more easily to skirms it should be like clear clear weakness. Because current long range jump is kinda antiskirm. It is very bad when sumo is countered mostly by some specialised units but not unit class. Probably at least 60% of sumo death cause is some sorta spy, skuttle, or stiletto + whatever attacks combination. PS in modstats rocko has only 2.14 ratio, recluse 1.40 at killing sumo this shows that something is horribly broken. Also as obvious as it is sumo does very well against all assaults or other riots. While it should be at ~1:1. By the way how are repaired units treated in modstats? Does repair figure in it at all?
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no, it does not, when really units of higher HP should receive an increasing weighting towards efficiency from repair-survival
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quote:
If I made it shoot disruptor beams, would it have synergy with Jack/Pyro? (at the expense of stealing Moderator's role, most likely)
I'm quite annoyed that I can't think of a single AoE weapon that would match its super thin arms... |
I dont think disruptor beams suit the units role or appearance though. The only ideas I have had so far are the aforementioned EMG, with a mechanic something along the lines of Gattling tanks from Zero Hour - a weapon than spins up the longer it has been firing. That would make skirmishing it - engaging and disengaging repeatedly - more effective.
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Spin-up or spin-down? Cause spin-up riot sounds like a bad idea, riots need their split-second aiming to be effective. Also: rather than making it a conventional heavy EMG another option could be to turn it into a 'scattergun', which fits perfectly with unit model.
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I have also been thinking of changing the weapon. I think jump should be the main feature of the Sumo so it's weapon is left with the task of not being too good. Current heatrays are particularly bad because it does high damage at low range which is the role of Jack. A good weapon would have about 300 or less range such that it is at the mercy of skirmishers if it doesn't jump onto them. A copy of the Warrior weapon could work well if it is supposed to be decent vs raiders. It could have the Halberd weapon if the weapon is to be owled. The Scorpion weapon could be a decent middle ground because it can hit raiders but does not have AoE.
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If you want jump to be the main damage dealer, how about a venom type emp weapon? Stun them in a big ball then flatten them. Would make it very weak against structures on its own though. If that's too weak maybe something like a rapid fire lightning gun with really gimped damage but still semi-decent EMP?
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quote:
Spin-up or spin-down? Cause spin-up riot sounds like a bad idea, riots need their split-second aiming to be effective. |
The Sumo is not a riot though - its a heavy designed to be good at fighting swarms of smaller units, which is not the same thing. It doesn't need alpha or twitch reaction speed. The appeal of a spin-up weapon is that mixing it up with a Sumo would become increasingly uneconomical (eg. swarming it with units), but that it can be skirmished if you can outrun it. Also, it would make walking the sumo at defenses initially unprofitable (that is the role of jacks) - currently the sumo massacres porc. quote:
A good weapon would have about 300 or less range such that it is at the mercy of skirmishers if it doesn't jump onto them |
Aye, but the model's weapons are long barrelled.. they look like long ranged weapons.
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I don't want to deal with the issues associated with spin up weapons. As in people can attack ground to spin up weapons so that would have to be blocked. I don't want to go there. quote:
Aye, but the model's weapons are long barrelled.. they look like long ranged weapons. |
I've managed to overcome the idea of weapon barrel consistency.
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Google say this what a "Sumo Gun" is:  So HMG. Now serious i like heat-ray more cause its combine nice will sumo jump damage. If we change it to something else Sumo have the risk of becoming another Grizzly, ie heavly that atk from distance. (and maybe even more OP cause it can jump and ignore terrain)
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well its particle beam now(right?)
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quote:
The Scorpion weapon could be a decent middle ground because it can hit raiders but does not have AoE. |
Where do i sign? Also, i want to file a secondary motion to place the spare heatray on scorpion after it's taken off sumo, because scorpion is semi-antiheavy in the strider menu, and heatrays will significantly help its antiheavy role (especially if it can paralyze and then munch at pointblank)
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