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Lveh vs shields - how to?

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11 years ago
So i recently played Light vehicles against shields and couldn't figure out any unit composition to win.

Shield composition is thugs and outlaws in equal amounts. What do you do against that? Scorchers get slowed instantly and die in 2 seconds. Slashers have a chance to work but don't deal with thugs effectively. Thugs just tank that. Levelers and ravagers suffer the same fate as scorchers: Slowed to death after 1 or 2 shots cos they have to get close. Wolverines don't deal nearly enough dps to deal with shields.
Which leaves us with domi. Basically, it should be able to outrange outlaws (we'll assume the domi is microed enough to ignore dirtbags). However, microed outlaws will always get a domi into slow range. Domi takes ages to turn around, so if outlaws go back and forth at some point domi will get caught and will be brought down.

Not to say anything about dirtbags being a pain for lveh...

So, what do you do?
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11 years ago
Can you be more specific about the map, where and at which point in the game?
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3 thugs + 3 outlaws vs any equal amount of metal (1290) in lveh. Surprise me. And no, 3 domis is not the winning strategy here.

Multiplayer B140832 2 on Adamantine_Mountian-V1.
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I am at work right now so can't watch the rep ;-)

But i can tell you that Adamantine Mountian is not a vehicle map. Their strength is their speed and that is hard to use in those lanes and hard to pass middle hill. While your opponent took the ideal factory for chokey lane fights and climbing hills.

Also, you are probably lucky you didn't get roached to death :P

That map is a bit tricky with its metal spots. Did pinguin get better eco by picking the "right" mexes?
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No. In fact i had an "extreme" eco lead. At one point he had 4 mexes and i had 8. And yes, i had sufficient energy and didn't excess.

Still, even on other maps, what do you do as lveh when that unit combination is knocking at your door? Don't tell me counterraid, if i don't kill those thugs and outlaws my base is meat, and i won't be able to kill his one with 3 ravagers...
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quote:
And no, 3 domis is not the winning strategy here.

WHAT!?

Six slow shieldy units should lose horribly even against a single domi, to say nothing about three, as long as those units don't include Felon.

If you manage to lose your domi to that composition, then you're doing it wrong, boy.
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Shieldball steps back a bit -> Domi has to follow. Shieldball suddenly turns around -> Domi is sitting ducks cos until it has turned it's slowed and dead.

Would you capture the thugs or the outlaws? Cos microed outlaws will retreat once they start getting capture. What are you gonna do with your domi then?
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11 years ago
In my experience on "proper" vehicle maps shields don't live long at all. They just die to scorcher-spam and levelers. It is hard for the shield player to defend his expo's if there are groups of scorchers driving around. But, i admit, haven't played much ZK since the outlaw shock wave change.

iirc, levelers splash through the thug shields. Can someone confirm or falsify this?
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They don't hurt the thugs (or not in noteworthy amounts). If there's stuff in the shields in front of the thugs then it takes the splash damage, yes, but since lveh have to get close anyways you're fine with keeping outlaws behind thugs.

The big disadvantage of shields is that they are slow, yes, but with radar coverage, some llts, some outlaws and bandits and a bit of precaution you shouldn't straight up die to scorcher and leveler spam.
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11 years ago
I'll try to get on line tonight and play some veh vs shields.
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quote:
What are you gonna do with your domi then?

Zigzag. One turn at a time. Your range margin freely allows it, unless you're working in really claustrophobic settings - in which case, it's your problem for going cars in first place :P

I'm going to assume this is doable on adamantine, though. Wanna science? :P

quote:
Would you capture the thugs or the outlaws?

Thugs do nothing to domi. A captured outlaw will also cause slow to the entire enemy blob, further lowering their abysmal chances of success.

Choice is obvious, if you're given one. But most of time, domi seems to capture things too fast for my poor micro to handle.
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Outlaws will stay behind thugs. So you have to at least come into thug range. It takes a few seconds to cap a full health (and they will be full health) outlaw, enough time to micro it away. Then you've got the choice of diving further in to really cap it (won't work) or back off. Back to square one. Except your domi probably took damage from thugs.

If you can, watch the replay and look how i tried to capture outlaws. I'm not saying i did everything right, but it wasn't even close to working.
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11 years ago
quote:
Except your domi probably took damage from thugs.

Thugs aren't infinite. This tactic will cause your enemy to run out of thugs real fast.
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...how did the thugs disappear? Did you cap them? I thought you tried capping the outlaw? Or did you kill them? How?
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Skasi
Vehicles can deal with any shieldbot unit as long as no Felon is in sight. Levelers and Domis should do the trick, even if enemies are using zomg-op-Outlaws.

If you have trouble microing Domi, spam Slashers. They have more range and speed, so they're good for training.

The real problem with shieldbots is that their shield is 100% free and unlike HP regenerates all the time, so you gotta make sure you don't take any damage.
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TL;DR: Micro: Dive UNDERNEATH the shields and focus the outlaws. Macro: The only method he has to force an engagement is to barrel into your defenses. Thuglaw is good against defenses, but defenses + army should win. If he refuses to engage, just raid his eco with ravagers.

Yeah Leveler does splash to the thug as well as full damage to the shield, but this is not actually that great against a tight thuglaw ball because usually (say if it were a hermit ball) ALL the units in the ball would take damage. So ironically Leveler is better vs individual thugs than groups.

The exception is when you dive the leveler right into the middle of the pack, under the shields. This is also really good with ravagers. You want to beat the crap out of thuglaw (Especially in a composition with fewer outlaws than thugs, which is typical), dive under his shields so that your barrels are inside the outlaws hitvolume. The shields wont help then. Note that this is suicidal, retreating with the slow is hard, so you want to go all in, but it is by far my favourite way of dealing with thuglaw.

If he has a more outlaw heavy composition, his shields will go down easier. Get them down, then focus the outlaws. Outlaws are only a problem for a ravager or leveler if the outlaw is under a shield. To get the shields down I wouldn't recommend artillery or slashers to drain shields so early in the game unless you can use it on enemy defenses from inside your own. The best way is to wait until he engages at your defenses. Thuglaw is great against static defense but the extra DPS you have should be enough to take out his shields and allow you to focus the outlaws down. If he declines to engage you at your defenses, use your superiority mobility to hit him elsewhere, then when he goes into your defense dive him from behind. Remember that as vehicles you always have control over where the engagement takes place and the only way he can force it is to attack your defenses.

The thing about shields is (unless you dive under the shield or use AoE) you NEED to have enough DPS to turn EVERY shield red, once you do that the units start dropping like flies (especially to leveler DPS), but before you do that you've done no permanent damage. This is the problem people have with shielballs that makes them feel so invincible- when you go in, you have to go ALL in. You cannot trade just a unit here and there.

If an enemy is really barrelling down your throat with this composition and you MUST stop him, walk your commander into him and blow up. Shields don't stop AoE. This works best with a jumpycom. Ensure you can secure the wrecks and ideally don't have an e-cell.

Correct use of your basic unit set is enough to win this matchup, but yes, Domi is the absolute hardcounter. Try and catch him while he is still moving towards your base (radar or your superior scouting capacities) and position the domi to intercept him. Turn it around and face it AWAY from him. If he comes towards you, just retreat it. Yes focus the outlaws (set target, NOT attack order, you have to keep retreating), if you get just one you'll prettymuch wipe out his whole pack- but getting any unit is good, so thugs are fine too (because of the stacking nature of shields and their otherwise immunity to chipping damage). If he retreats from you? You don't have to chase. Since you are faster you can just move parallel to him to intercept him wherever he goes, and a parallel facing should give you enough time to get away if he barrels down on you. This is micro'ing with turning circles 101: you want the unit to already be facing close to the direction you want it to go before it needs to go that way.

Yes this is a high micro strategy, and yes it can easily foul up if you mismicro. But it's the hardcounter, the unit that can destroy the whole pack and take 0 losses (Potentially it can actually GET you more units). If that's what your looking for, perfect your domi micro. But I'd just say practice your fundamentals with ravager/leveler and you'll be fine.

Multiplayer B131543 2 on Intersection_v2
This map is veh-viable, but there are a lot of bot-only slopes, so it's no cometcatcher. I will admit though that I primarily won because I rushed scorchers and took out several starting mexes while taking no raiding myself, but you can see a lot of correct usage of units and micro against a thuglaw composition.
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quote:
...how did the thugs disappear? Did you cap them? I thought you tried capping the outlaw? Or did you kill them? How?

quote:
Choice is obvious, if you're given one.

Your scenario - thugs shield outlaws from capray with their feeble little brains on the line of fire - is the 'you are not given choice' one, which is expected. Yes, you cap whatever you can. Don't tell me that blob can avoid capture by unit rotation.

Also, domi has this wonderful button that causes it to autoselfd any captured units, so any damage you do becomes lasting.
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11 years ago
Do heatrays still have that bug where they do full damage to shields from any range?
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11 years ago
quote:
Do heatrays still have that bug where they do full damage to shields from any range?

Yup, and the awesome new heatray weaponhit effects make that distinction quite visual.

Too bad that out of regular heatray units, one gets nuked by outlaw, and the other doesn't really need to sap shieldball from distance because jump curb stomp.
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and the third has a D-gun
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