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Athena

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The Athena can build a selection of units behind enemy lines, which is pretty cool - but what criteria was used to decide which units it could build?

flea, recluse and infiltrator --> the best of the spider lab
bandit & vandal --> the light raider & AA of the sheild lab
moderator ---> a slowing support unit from the jumpers
sniper & Rector ----> cloakies
Ultimatum ---> strider

I think this is a pretty silly mix!
1) it has no united theme
2) it has an excellent mix of units for frontal combat
3) over half of those units are unsuited to commando actions.

I imagine this is a leftover from before so many better suited units were avaliable, but now they are how about a reform - only stealthy commando units for the athena.

Builder: Rector
Scout: Infiltrator
Raider: Scythe
Artillery: Sniper
Crawler: Skuttle
Utility: Eraser
Heavy: Ultimatum
Super Heavy: Scorpion

no anti air - the units are all stealthy after all - and nothing suited to frontal combat. It would make using the Athena as a starting factory less optimal, which can only be an added bonus, and make causing mischief behind enemy lines harder to detect.

thoughts?


+0 / -0
12 years ago
Not suitable for commando actions? Perfectly suitable for commando actions, also in early game, when you do not have enough E to support fully cloaked units.

Current uses for athena:
- early game grab for central - high value area; you do want to build some AA when there is a fixed wing and/or gunship player. Other than that first defender against that lonely avenger, vandals fill that role perfectly - and they are mobile, which helps you to push. Bandits, relatively cheap, help the Athena fend off raiders, such as scrubbers, glaives and other bandits. A pack of recluses certainly helps you to push out from your forward base. You will want all terrain there because the Athena is typically used to gain control of a central - high value area in rugged terrain (otherwise you would make heavies and send a welder).
- mid game construction of spies and scouts. Fleas are one of the best scouts for other spies, such as skuttles, infiltrators, scythes & sharpshooters. And they serve as invisible radar! And the beauty of it is that you can use your Athena to build scouts and spies near where you want them. Ever seen a sharpshooter walk? Well, it is sloooooow ....
- mid game sneaking a base behind enemy lines, typically this goes like this: cloak, find a spot not covered by LOS for an opponent that is looking elsewhere, build a rector for its stealth coverage, then build a sneaky pete, followed by churning out a quantity of units that can harass and destroy ECO; again bandits & recluses + an infiltrator to scout for high value targets for your commandos. Make a few vandals near an air or gunship factory and those factories will stop being useful until the miscreant vandals are apprehended.
- mid game placement of solitary commando units behind enemy lines, such as sniper, scythe, ultimatum.
- end game building of the anti-heavy infilrators and ultimatums, both to scout and destroy static targets such as protectors, singularities, moho-geos or those pesky banthas, dantes & detriments.

Without non-E requiring units, Athena would be less than useful during early game. About the only unit that is a bit silly in the current line up is the moderator, but even that has its use.

IMHO Scorpion would make a good addition to the current Athena lineup. Skuttle would probably not be a good idea, roaches or ticks might be a better choice for crawler using commando style tactics. Eraser, well, you can build a sneaky pete with your Athena so why bother? Scythe would be a welcome addition for commando style tactics too.
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To be clear, I think many of those uses should be removed (along with removing the athena as a ploppable starting factory). That way, the e-cost is not an issue as it wont be built until you have infrastructure to support it. Rather than being a jack-of-all-trades factory alternative &noobtrap, it should be refined toward fulfilling its role of commando insertion.
+0 / -0
12 years ago
It is a noobtrap because people forget that it is very, very vulnerable and that you need tons of E to support all those beautiful cloaked units. And it certainly is not a jack of all trades.

I do agree that the selection appears to be a leftover when the Athena was an even worse noobtrap, namely when it also fulfilled the role of strider hub. Quite a few nubs plopped an Athena then started building Dantes (or worse) with it. I do not agree that over half the units it builds are unsuited for commando actions.

The lineup currently is aimed at raiding and scouting deep in hostile territory and it does not provide the capabilities for frontal assaults. Sure, it could be revised a little:
- moderator does seem out of place
- a stealth AA unit instead of vandal would be preferable
- recluses are a debatable skirmisher option, perhaps a panther would make more sense, except that it is hardly all terrain nor a skirmisher.

A Scorpion is hardly a commando style unit and you already need support (caretakers, rectors) to build it in any reasonable amount of time (3000/9=333 seconds or, in other words, in excess of 5 minutes if you let the Athena build it on its own, while staying uncloaked all the time that it is building it ...., hell, even a sharpshooter is pushing your luck).
+0 / -0

12 years ago
The selection is a leftover from BA, which is lol.
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I do agree the unit configuration is a bit odd.

Random idea:
Make Athena build in Cloakybot fac, and make it simply build all cloakybot units? That would overlap, altough probably a silly idea.


A revision of units might be nice, and I'd love to see a Stealth AA for Athena. Something that cloaks, hasn't got the massive range most AA has, and that deals a lot of damage with a really long reload, so they can show up from in cloak, fire a lethal round and reposition. Would add some diversity to AA units.
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12 years ago
I heard it was being moved to the strider hub as a constructor. I don't think it should have an AA unit, that makes it too viable as a factory alternative.
+0 / -0
12 years ago
if you try the test version of ZK athena cannot be plopped anyway
+0 / -0
12 years ago
:-(
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12 years ago
What is Athena even for. It does a lot of different stuff but is any of it good design?
+0 / -0
12 years ago
Athena is a strategic unit, with the following main goals:
- to disrupt opposition economy and supply lines;
- to gain intelligence on the oppositions movements, economy and actions;
- to gain a tenable foothold in unexpected places, either with the purpose of connecting that foothold with the main body of the ground held by allies or to divert attention from the main theatre

I am sure the Athena and the units / structures could be designed better with these goals in mind.
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12 years ago
All factories should have units that can accomplish these things.
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12 years ago
All the factories can do point one otherwise they would be pretty useless factories.

Point two is done with varying methods and effectiveness by all the factories. In particular it is a role of fixedwing.

Point three never occurs past the start of the game. At the start of the game it is extremely powerful. I also question if this ability is a good mechanic.
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in RL though, the solution put foward in OP post is a pretty cool guy
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FIrankFFC
12 years ago
wait stumpy? this? http://www.google.fi/imgres?q=total+annihilation+stumpy&hl=fi&biw=1024&bih=531&gbv=2&tbm=isch&tbnid=bXQPXI4_kNt9zM:&imgrefurl=http://totalannihilationhome.wikia.com/wiki/Stumpy&docid=0MYow5kMJa5FpM&itg=1&imgurl=http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110609120427/totalannihilationhome/images/a/a9/ARMSTUMP.png&w=266&h=258&ei=9CNaT86rCYXj4QTlm8ngDw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=530&vpy=85&dur=625&hovh=206&hovw=212&tx=99&ty=92&sig=104577173411548946957&page=1&tbnh=159&tbnw=164&start=0&ndsp=9&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0
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12 years ago
No this:

http://planet-wars.eu/ModelBase/ModelDetail.aspx?ModelID=114
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FIrankFFC
12 years ago
whatta fuck is that??
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12 years ago
That was the Stumpy in CA, before the factions were merged into CA1Fac, the predecessor to ZK.
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looks strange

i think total annihilations version looks better
+0 / -0
+1 for making athena unable to build buildings.

I think its buildlist should be:
Reactor, Flea, Scythe, Roach, Tick, Skuttle, Eraser, Jack, Ultimatum

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