continuation of http://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/29151?page=1does amph need an underwater-skirm and artillery?
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I thought lobbed scallops was underwater-skirm/artillery.
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ducks are pointless in sea after scallop walls happen so scallop becomes the only answer .. 2 amphib players becomes a scallop smash i wish duck was a bit faster in sea.. waddles on land but swims faster in water +25%
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Amph is the only way teleport units via Djinn, do they even get used in mirror matches? EDIT: Why aren't Buoy shots water capable? It literally solves the underwater skirmisher problem with the least effort.
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buoy gets to skirmish claymore and siren! yay!
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quote:
If the longest range fighting unit capable of hitting underwater and surface units is itself an underwater unit, sea will be a total mess. |
So a amphbot skirmisher capable of hitting underwater units, but that has to float to fire, would be ok. Should the Buoy hit underwater units? If its current weapon is too strong, it could have a second, weaker anti-sub weapon.
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Would buoys really counter scallops if they can't move and shoot? I'm curious to see different scenarios of metal equivalent buoys vs scallops and see which one wins assuming that the buoy has to surface to shoot, but cannot move while doing so.
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Simple solution: lets hit 2 birds with one stone :) add Kraken make it a skirm and arty, fast firing, high velocity, slow damaging, moderate damage shots that can hit underwater too :) it fits the role or an arty and doubles up as a skirmisher with more accuracy then buoy but more costlier too
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Do you have a model for Kraken?
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In an amph mirror, I think the best option is to facswitch to something that can help if your opponent is clearly going for the scallop wall. A decent option is to go with a shipyard and build sirens and/or seawolves. Seawolf's slowing torpedoes can help a lot against the devastating scallop torpedoes, and a handful of claymores, spread out, can be devastating against scallops as well (don't spam them - use them in limited numbers for maximum effectiveness)
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i would advise you not to use seawolf vs mass scallop if the enemy is good at micro and has reclaiming cons.. vs scallop wall as you said siren or claymore is nice..
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I forgot before, but Kraken was an amph unit implemented by Rymarq that was close to existing, which was a skirmisher when underwater and artillery when on land. I don't remember why it was removed, but the design is pretty nice. It uses the same grenades underwater and on land. In water they're like non-homing torpedoes, and on land they work like an artillery cannon. The unit wouldn't need to be great at either being an underwater skirm or artillery. Being able to outrange Scallop at sea and outrange Stinger on land would be good enough for now. Rymarq's original design was quite a bit more powerful than the simple requirements I set above. Looking at the stats it used to have, its range could be nerfed underwater from 440 to somewhere above 230 which is Scallop's range underwater. I'd also prefer its weapon to be high trajectory on land so it's clearly an anti-structure artillery unit. I guess the model is the biggest issue, since it ended up being used for Lobster, and also the guns look a bit silly when firing high trajectory. The model (old Hermit model btw) 
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The thing about "outranging Scallop in water" is that the amph-mirror meta will probably just shift from "only spam Scallop" to "only spam Kraken". The idea of an amph-skirmisher that only fires from the surface has some promise but there would still be design issues to work out with it.
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Indeed, the risk of skirmisher spam is real. That's why Duck (and/or some other units) should be able to counter the skirm, much like it's on land. The float-to-fire skirm also sounds interesting. The simplest way would be to make Buoy able to fire at underwater Scallops, and it'd probably work fine gameplay-wise. They would be super counterable with Ducks, but Scallops would have a harder time with the long range and slow of Buoys.
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Make it so that underwater the Kraken gains 2 long-range homing high damage torpedos but with a long reload and no aoe. This makes it's effective against scallops, one torp should kill a scallop but the long reload makes it bad against raiders. ON land it uses 6 rapid-fire plasma artillery cannons with long-range, no aoe, accurate and fast shells which deal medium damage and slow damage.
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   Tarkin, how much would that Kraken cost? Why would it be more balanced than water capable Buoy shots? The water capable Buoy shots would do to the Amphbot mirror match what shadow wave did for Dark Adepts in Wesnoths for the Undead faction. It would give Amphbots a tool to break jams caused by durable Amphbots.
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Going by the amph philosophy of costly, slow, tanky and quality with slow being a fac specialty, I would say make it around 700-850 metal. In regards to being better than a modified buoy: Buoy is a great skirmisher but it has its own unique identity already. The Kraken is meant to be a skirmisher underwater and artillery on land. This solves a lot of problems. It gives amph an artillery unit, adds more unit diversity, and breaks the scallop spam. Sure it needs a new model but gameplay-wise, it's a needed addition to make amph complete. A modified buoy would work, but then what does amph do against porc? A Kraken doesn't need to be accurate underwater. It fires 2 good torpedos that home in and kill a scallop but without aoe and a 10-12 second reload makes it ineffective against ducks and too overkill. Its price makes it not spammable. On land, it's accurate and fast-firing does decent damage and slow damage. Without aoe, it isn't too effective against raiders who should be able to outrun its shots but against slower-moving units or strutures, it should act as an effective artillery.
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Amph would keep using Grizzly and Buoy against Porc.
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But why not give amph an arty? Every single fac has one but amph. Most facs even have 2.
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Also, the way I proposed Kraken be, underwater would have lots of options: Lobster would still be very useful to lob scallops close range to kill krakens or ducks to swarm it. It would switch the amph meta underwater back to a rock-paper-scissors.
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