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Noobs and the Dunning-Kruger Effect, or, Why Noobs Don't Listen

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Ever notice noobs that don't seem to understand how bad they are, even to the point of thinking they are better than most players?

I've seen players with 1300 Elo say things like "I don't do well in team games - I'm actually much better."

I've seen people build huge porc fortresses in their base game after game. They inevitably get crushed, but they die last and attribute their longevity to the "fact" that they were the best player on their team.

I've seen players with all units repeatedly complain that a certain unit is OP when used against them - yet when they use the exact same unit it is easily countered and they don't understand why.

I've heard players say that Elo means nothing in team games, regardless of the fact that the players with the highest win percentages also have the highest Elo ratings. Heck, that's basically what defines Elo in the first place.

I've dealt with players who fail in the same way over and over but refuse to change their strategy. It's like they have no ability to learn from trial-and-error. It's all error, no trial.

Anyways, there's a reason for this phenomenon. It's called the Dunning-Kruger effect. The gist of it is that when a person's skill at almost any task is low enough, they can no longer recognize that they are bad at that skill. They have such a low understanding of what it means to be "good" that they can't even recognize that they are bad.

In meme form: http://troll.me/what-if-im-retarded-but-everyone-is-playing-along-so-i-have-no-idea/

In the Dunning-Kruger studies, they tested people on 4 different subjects, showed them their scores, and asked the subjects to estimate their performance relative to their peers. Incompetent testers, scoring in the 12th percentile, actually estimated themselves as falling in the 62nd percentile. That's a huge difference! They weren't just slightly inflating their skill level - they moved themselves from "bottom of the bucket" to "better than average"!

It's not just limited to ZK - you'll see this in any form of online gaming. Less than a week ago I spoke on my experiences with noobs in World of Warcraft. I'm positive that many of the poor players I raided with fall into the range of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Anyways, this certainly doesn't solve any problems but it does explain why noobs consistently refuse to take advice because they "know they are right". They probably literally believe that they are better than average.




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12 years ago
This is hardly suprising ..
70% of people consider themselves above average drivers etc..

Nobody wants to be below average :-)

With elo its in plain sight so its better to claim that elo does not work in team games than to hurt self confidence.

I approve this. Elo does not work in team games!
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12 years ago
There is a flip side to the Dunning-Kruger Effect, that skilled people consistently underestimate themselves (Or, overestimate everyone else). Which means I must be REALLY amazing at this game (and everyone else is AWFUL).
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12 years ago
I know a very similar effect in the context of programming languages: The blub paradox

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blub#Blub

People that don't know more powerful languages can never look down in the "power continuum". When they stay at their simple language they look up and see weird stuff:

"What he sees are merely weird languages. He probably considers them about equivalent in power to Blub, but with all this other hairy stuff thrown in as well. Blub is good enough for him, because he thinks in Blub."

Paul Graham refers in this article with respect to LISP, but it fits even more with respect to languages like Haskell… oh well it gets off-topic :D
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12 years ago
MEH, as long as you have fun playing no matter what you do it is good. After all this is game, and if you lose it doesnt matter at all. If somebody dont like that you lose it is his problem. I had fun thats enough for me ;)
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12 years ago
Noobs thinks in Blub, because Blub is enough for them?
Now translate the first post into Blub :)

How you feel about it -> How you think about it
* it is hard -> many other peoples will fail more than me
* it is easy -> other peoples might are propably suited with more complex strategies (nothing a noob is thinking about -> there are no more complex strategies because mine is "the best")
* watch the replay -> to show me how long I had defended myself?

How about giving the noobs some FFA games where everybody is scouting him and attacking him first with the strategy he expected at least?
Then let ourselfs get overrunned by all others to show the noob, that he is really a noob.
( I don't talk about ALL vs noobs, which has exactly the opposite effect )
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12 years ago
You are a peoples champ Antelope, thanks for putting into words what I rage the fuck out over every time I play :p
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12 years ago
A lot of people are used to a hostile gaming environment which is nothing but smacktalk and aggression. In this context, noob is simply an insult. The idea that they might be bad at a game because they are new to it and there are people who want to help them get better is just foreign to them, they just want to dick around and teabag people.
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I like to teach newbies. No sarcasm, really.

But only if they want to be taught. Very few newbies ask for help, so sometimes I have to take the first step and give comments what they can improve on.

This means that we probably won't win the game, but that we might have a better chance the next match.


...Then again, I can rage pretty badly too. Especially if they're completely mute and don't respond to a single thing I say.
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12 years ago
Hi all,

Sorry, i am noob :D

I only want to say something in defence of us. When you say that some of us are mute, you have to think on the language. Im from spain and have to write on english sometimes at work, but mostly of us don't use it never.
New game, lot of things on screen, lot of unknown abreviations, different language. Not is too easy.


Regards!
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12 years ago
Yes see your arguments, but if you stay on
that "la la, I don’t listen to people" level,
you will not get better. But your reflection show me
that’s not the case for you. If more people reflect themselves we will
complain so much :).

on the other side most of the mid-good guys are to lazy to help noobs,
which is from my point of view bad. Or they trolling on them or what else.
But this push the "total" newbs away. They think its a bad and elitism game.

So my resume is that the newbs may read the manual at least one time and listen
more to better player. Also if English is not your language, you will get used
to the necessary words ;).
On the pro/”longer-playing-guys” side we should give more advise to them.
If they don’t listen it’s their fault. But with that we will catch more
players to Zero-K.

PS. sorry for my English ;)

Logikfreak
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12 years ago
>I only want to say something in defence of us. When you say that some of us are mute, you have to think on the language. Im from spain and have to write on english sometimes at work, but mostly of us don't use it never.

Then help us help you! Whenever someone tells me that their english is not very good, I will make an attempt to simplify my language to help them. But you must LET US KNOW! I can't tell if you are listening or not if you never respond.
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12 years ago
Antelope, is fine, but us are the exception here, usualy noobs don't want help because nobody wants to feel like a fool, and usualy too the skilled players dont want waste time with noobs. Is normal, i don't think that this will have a solution.

Be happy :D
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12 years ago
I give advice and continue if I get a positive response.
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12 years ago
yup will do this too :)
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12 years ago
>I give advice and continue if I get a positive response.

Exactly! I love watching a new player figure everything out with some help. There's been a couple newbs that have gained a 100 Elo skill boost in a couple games, by simply taking friendly advice.

The advice isn't there to be mean or condescending. I WANT newbs to get better, because the way I see it, more skilled players

more players sticking around

eventual Elo-designated rooms!
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Skasi
I give advice and usually continue no matter what.

If people appreciate my advice I continue.

If people ignore me I continue because they either did not read the chat (overwhelmed-busy-don't notice) or because they did not understand what I said, in which case using simple and different words (and drawing instead of talking) helps.

If people tell me to shut up, thinking they are doing fine and what I tell them is bad/wrong I continue because they need the help more than anyone else.
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12 years ago
Knowing how trollish skasi is it is better to not listen to advices from him.
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12 years ago
I don't think raging really qualifies as "advice", whatever the content.
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12 years ago
Could it help to add more wiki pages about strategies?
If someone make something wrong, you give him a link to the exact strategy page where it is explaned why to make or make not a specific thing.

Include a translation link in our manual.
Make a page about required word skills (words like "attack now", "kill their pene with XXX")

If a newbe is noob enough to not listen to, he deserves to be called noob.
We don't need players which are/do both - noob and don't listen to markers - in our team hosts. They should be moved (juggler) to 1v1 hosts and play their own league.

That would remove some really bad players and improve the fun even for other newbes, results in a better gameplay and a better experience for the "good" newbes + reduce the rage factor of experienced players.

The only difficulty is to differenciate between this two kinds of newbes and how to explaain noobs to be banned/movedAway from team hosts.
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