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long live spring

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i hope zk and ba and other spring mods last the test of time
+1 / -2
9 years ago
Blah blah blah the game will die blah blah blah

And then it doesn't. You probably have no idea how many people already said that in the past regarding any Spring game and guess what! Ba is not "elitist" it is "veteranistic". In fact I doubt that anybody who knows how to play BA still plays it at all.
People get bored and move on after some time. It is a natural way of a hobbies and interests.
+4 / -1
BA is "we spent most of our effort budget on making an almost complete glorious new remake, and then left it unreleased under a ND clause, with effective bus factor zero for two years due to key contributors having lives".
+5 / -1

9 years ago
Imho, both Spring and Zero-K actually share a big problem with uptake:

The installer fails to handle UAC. I've found both ZK and SpringLobby require that I either do wonky work-arounds or disable UAC to get them working. As more and more users move to newer and more UAC-laden Windows versions (the intrusiveness of UAC seems to have increased with each release since Vista) the damage it does to the new player experience increases.
+7 / -0

9 years ago
BA isn't going to die any time soon. If it hasn't died after roughly 10 years then it won't suddenly die. The last few years it has been completely stale too, it lost all variety and all the good players jumped ship a while back, yet it still hasn't died.

Also wat Anarchid said. BAR was worlds biggest waste of effort. Funniest part about it is that if they ever do properly release it, I doubt any of the current BA players will even switch because they all hate change.
+0 / -0


9 years ago
yup, ridiculous to have all those beautiful models shelved. We should put in an offer.. a ZK whiparound to buy them models.
+0 / -0

9 years ago
It's Imperial Winter all over again.
+0 / -0
The issue with BAR is the lack of devs to finish it, and not licensing. While I personally don't like ND/NC and similar, it makes sense for them since they don't want other TA-likes stealing the art and ruining the BAR release. Also, I find it ridiculous that anyone from ZK would complain about BAR's license since ZK doesn't even have a clear license for art which means one should consider it as proprietary to be legally safe.

Also threads like this are getting ridiculous. Most of us know the issues of Spring games and have tried to solve them in the free time we have. Feedback is not needed at this point (see this: https://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=33540#p570017 ), but rather dev power and perhaps some centralization (it's silly how everyone - myself included - tries to solve lobby/server issues by making a new one instead of focusing work at the existing ones).
+2 / -0
Theoretically, the ND clause prevents anyone except Behe from deriving from the files which have the clause; and all art in BAR which are not explicitly stated otherwise have the clause.

Thus i don't see the ND clause issue as separate from BF0 issue, e.g. it scaring off any new contributors wishing to pick up the work, aggravating the effects of stagnation.

ZK's licensing issues probably have similar, but much weaker effects.
+0 / -0
9 years ago
Biggest spring problem is/was confusing start. I tried to play spring 2 or 3 times before I actually started playing it. And I m linux user. Basically I installed bunch of games when I was bored from apt-get and guess what you launch spring it asks you to do some bunch of bullshit before you can start playing, no maps nothing. Since I had bunch of other games to tryout I just moved on. Second time I had springlobby, but I couldnt join any game because my apt-get'ed spring release was outdated. Again I just moved on. And some time later somehow I found out about game called "kernel panic" obviously I had to try it out and I bothered to compile engine and whatever. I was surprised how good spring games were to be honest and even more suprised how unknown they are everyone talks about unplayable 0.A.D (maybe now its playable) and so on but zero words about spring.

Currently most of these problems are solved, but still I consider there is no* sexy lobby which would invite you to play and new players are very impatient if you came at wrong time you can wait up to hour before you actually start playing a teamgame.

*Notalobby is sexy, fast intuitive, but closed source.
+5 / -0
9 years ago
This sums up how unknown spring games are and my google bubble should suggest zk somewhere.

+1 / -0
"googles 0 AD, expects Zero-K to show in result"

In fact according to google when I search for "free RTS"



lets keep going



Oh look Zero-K at 7th position and then followed by Spring and Evo!
Where is 0 AD you ask? At 17th place total, on the 2nd page. Of course this is just google script and 0 AD website might just be not indexed properly.
+6 / -0


9 years ago
quote:
"googles 0 AD, expects Zero-K to show in result"

This does somehow work for Warzone, Wesnoth, and Glest?
+1 / -0
quote:
This does somehow work for Warzone, Wesnoth, and Glest?

I don't know why it does include Warzone but Glest, AoE II, FreeCiv are simmilar to 0 AD one way or another. Weasnoth is just the most popular open source game so that could be why.

I should probably state that I am not arguing with a fact that Zero-K and other spring games are not underdogs but google does not provide a good proof for that.

---

I think I know why Spring games are being treated as they are:

1. They are tied to Spring Commander, which as many of you know used to be THE game for Spring and most people who know about Spring they connect into a wannabe TA in 3d fanproject eg nothing super interesting.

2. Those who are a bit too old for Spring Commander tend to think about Spring as of BA as it has become THE Spring game after the fall of Spring Commander.

It should also be considered that no Spring game besides Evo and PURE was ever promoted in any major media outlet and neither of these games were long lived and were lost in the sea of information. Contrary to this 0 AD or BoW were featured multiple of times on major gaming websites and whatnot.
+0 / -0

9 years ago
to find zk, best query is "dwarf fortress clones"

also zk license on wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_open-source_video_games#Open-source_games_with_own_but_non-free_content
+3 / -0

9 years ago
quote:
In fact according to google when I search for "free RTS"

ehm, that's because google knows you and knows you like ZeroK/spring/whatever.

Try searching that on private browsing, you'll get different results.
+0 / -0
9 years ago
That is true ILrankhokomoko.
Tried the same in private browsing and ZK popped on the 2nd page just above 0 AD. Glest was as a last position on the first page and Evo RTS was as a 4th search result.
+0 / -0
Spring is dead, blah blah blah. I'm pretty sure I've heard this same mantra since the great forum wipe of 2005.

It amazes me that I've been following spring since 2004 (actually before when it was ta demo recorder, but whatever).

PURE and Evo were mentioned in the same sentence, which I find annoying. PURE has headed by argh, a egotistic megalomaniac and general all around asshole (sometimes).

Time for a little history that no one gives a flying crap about...

I started Evo sometimes back in ... shit, 2007? I dunno, I started it when i was still messing around with FunTA and decided that I could make a game that I would actually like to play. One that could cater to pros and newbies alike.

I did some hideous models and made 2 races, 3 times (each iteration was a tiny bit better), and then Kaiser came along and made new models and textures at a pro level for everything. Then lego came along and kaiser kinda disappeared after doing some of the evo units. I went through and finished them myself, added a bunch of new units, completely revamped sounds effects, etc...

All during this time evo wen't through some fairly major renovations in gameplay. I tried so many things that just didn't work. The real breakthrough was when godde spent MONTHs helping me design balance and gameplay. It has since progressed far beyond what it was then, but I learned a lot from our exchanges.

In the meantime I had been trying to get the steam thing, I had already managed desura, but installs were a constant problem. Lobbies sucked, ATI sucked, not enough bodies for troubleshooting, Tiny playerbase, BA and ZK players badmouthing it (this one I found the most irritating, especially considering that while I very much dislike ZK gameplay and find it quite boring, I was intelligent enough to understand that gamers are usually capable of liking more than one game, and would send people who liked evo to check out zk games, but I digress after this long ass run-on sentence) the list goes on and on.

There is a lot more that went on in the background. These are just the highlights. What all happened is actually pretty interesting but I'm pretty sure that no one cares to hear it lol.

The point is, spring isn't dead, it's not going to die. For all it's faults it is a great engine. ZK is the only project that has garnered enough dev bodies to be able to tackle the lobby/tutorial/etc problems head on. The best Evo can do atm is videos and wiki (which has proved to be somewhat successful).

The lobby situation is being sorted out, albiet slowly. Ikinz' reactjs weblobby is relatively bug free at this point (it has some but they aren't critical), and when I direct my new steam people to it they have LOVED it so far, so that's a step in the right direction.

In game tutorials are a bitch because there is not one unified way of doing it. Someone always goes off and does their own thing which is infuriating. Much of the time I feel like I'm on an island by myself being the only person able to look at spring as a whole in an objective manner. I know I'm not the only one, but it seems like I'm the only one that bothers to open my mouth most of the time. My view is not limited in scope. That said, I generally filter out zk from my scope because A, different server, B most of these problems have been addressed at least to some degree.

I can say that smoth is working towards some solutions for a few of these things, but this community only has one smoth, which is unfortunate. Gajop's in game lobby looks promising. ScenED also looks promising, but it's difficult to see it's progress.

The fact of the matter is, anything regarding progress with spring is going to move forward at the speed of a glacier, but it will move forward. Most of us are one man shows. ZK being the largest exception. But no, Spring is in no danger of dying.

I regard the split of zk as a net positive. It avoided a lot of the problems that BA caused as a result. Sure, it sucks that those players aren't on the main server, but by splitting off, it helps keep zk from squashing other projects and allows zk more freedom to spread it's wings and grow in the process. I may not find Zk particularly interesting as a game, but I am very much hopeful that it will be a massive success.

If I had only one critique for zk and my largest dislike of it, it would be that the sound effects in zk are very amateurish (easy to fix!) and the sound track (music) does not fit the gameplay (a little harder, but still simple to fix). The music tracks for zk are the equivalent of listening to smooth jazz while driving an F1. The music for TA fit because the orchestra hit were very pointed and sharp and designed to elicit a specific set of emotions.

If you wanna have some good fun sometime, play an evo ai (shard or survival) while listening to this on repeat (to demonstrate the absurdity of how well it doesn't fit... plus the song is hilarious)... Good times:


Sorry for the epic post out of nowhere.
+10 / -0


9 years ago
quote:
The music tracks for zk are the equivalent of listening to smooth jazz while driving an F1.

I actually read the entire textwall to find a valid reason for upvote except "being a huge lump of content".

This.
+1 / -0


9 years ago
I think the music is a matter of taste. For me the EvoRTS music does not fit.
+3 / -0
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