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low cost artillery

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DErankMagman
10 years ago
We need mor low cost arty vs. defender spam.
Arty units in facs:
Spider: "crabe" (to expensiv)
Jumper: Firewalker (to expensiv vs. defender), Jack (to expensiv to tank a few defenders)
cloaky: hammer (nice one)
shield: racketeer (is a option but don't kill stuff) (thugs are good vs defenderspam)
light veh: Impaler (to expensiv), wulverine (is ok)
heavy tank: pillager (to expensiv), tremor (to expensiv) (reaper to expensiv at the start if a game [1v1])
hover: pene (to expensiv), halbers (tank them away)
gs: no need
planes: no need
ships: no need due to crusader and snakes
amph: grizzly (to expensiv)

Think of it even if you overrun defenderspam with reclues or redbags the enemy got the reclaim.
so at least amph, spider, and jumper need low cost arty.
+2 / -0
Skasi
10 years ago
Use assault units. Kill a couple Defenders (not necessary all of them), retreat without losses, repair, repeat.

On another note, Defenders are the strongest of any porc due to their versatility and range. I still think Defenders and LLTs deserve a small cost increase, not really to nerf them, but to make other porc a better competition when players have to pick.
+7 / -0


EErankAdminAnarchid
10 years ago
I fully support increasing Defender cost to match or be above Lotus.
+2 / -0


GBrank[GBC]1v0ry_k1ng
10 years ago
I fully agree that having most artillery weighted at 700m+ is a stupid when the porc they are needed to counter typically costs 80m-90m.
+1 / -0
CHrankn42k
10 years ago
I agree with Skasi, I don't think you should use artillery to kill tons of defenders, although it works quite well. I use it when there's larger and more expensivE* defenses that will obliterate any assault unit.

Furthermore, you can also use assault units and raiders to let the defenders waste all their ammo on the assaults and then wreck them with raiders.
+0 / -0

DErankMagman
10 years ago
(edited 10 years ago)
So Skasi what would you do vs. glaive supported defenderspam on Wanderlust with spiders? Spam hermits? I decided to go redbacks it worked somehow but then rockos came along and redback had to retreat. Next plan vs rockos where pyros but I missed to build a Jack I think. Vs the defender + lutusspam supproted by glaives and rockos.
Multiplayer B306185 2 on wanderlust_V01
You can ignore the upcoming Brawlers. Game was over before they appeared.
+0 / -0

CArankPxtl
10 years ago
There is a missing niche of purely-low-weight anti-static artillery. Racketeer used to be the exemplar, but then it got turned into its current anti-heavy homing hyper-accurate form. Hammer is a bit too generalist instead of being specifically anti-static - it needs a spotter to be effective against small targets.

But so many assault units do that role fine, it's not a big deal that it no longer exists.... it would be nice if somewhere in teh game there was still a low-weight anti-static artillery.
+0 / -0
Skasi
10 years ago
(edited 10 years ago)
Just send in 5 or so Fleas to eat all the shots, then follow it up with Venoms to emp all defenders or Redbacks to just DPS them down before they get to reload? Another option would be Hermits to take out a Defender or two and when Glaives start chasing move back to Venoms waiting outside Defender range. Not sure, but I guess Recluses work if you don't suicide them (against Rockos too).

An idea I just came up with (untested): Don't use support comm with spiders. Weavers already have extremely good buildpower per cost (same as Mariner(ships) and only surpassed by Conch(amphs)). Instead use Battle or Bombard commanders to make up for the lack of certain roles in the spider factory.

Also don't be afraid to rush 10 Fleas instead of just 5 and replace those that die early. You definitely needed more intel if you want to defend your valuable expansions with a mostly mobile (slow spider) force. Also increases chances of a few surviving to mid/lategame.

That said, keep in mind I'm not really a 1v1 player.
+1 / -0


EErankAdminAnarchid
10 years ago
(edited 10 years ago)
quote:
use Battle or Bombard commanders to make up for the lack of certain roles in the spider factory.

Siege Commander with Standoff Rocket Launcher can be a fairly efficient and affordable artillery piece.

Bonus point is that it beats other commanders in 1v1!
+0 / -0

DErankAdminmojjj
10 years ago
quote:
Siege Commander with Standoff Rocket Launcher


quick! use it as long its not nerfed into oblivion!
+2 / -0
DErankKlon
10 years ago
dont think defender in its current form deserves a nerf. tho a few facs do have problems with it, others can just walk over it.
+1 / -0

NLrank[XIV]Floris
10 years ago
(edited 10 years ago)
quote:
On another note, Defenders are the strongest of any porc due to their versatility and range. I still think Defenders and LLTs deserve a small cost increase, not really to nerf them, but to make other porc a better competition when players have to pick.


Mary me.
+2 / -0

EErank[ISP]Lauri
10 years ago
(edited 10 years ago)
Both Lotus and Defender seem possibly too strong or cheap. I spam them in most games and it seems to work better than it should. Part of the reason why I spam them so much is also that the best counter to enemy turretcreep is your own. Units simply don't hold up to the power of simple turret creep. Even under enemy artillery fire it is often good to keep plopping new turrets until you prepare your counters. Artillery should be a hard counter to statics, not merely a slight annoyance.

Lotus and Defender are a very quick, easy and lazy tool to secure an area, but in groups often require an unproportionally large amount of metal, time and preparation to take down.

Something like +10m to both the cost of Lotus and Defender sounds like a change I'd gladly test out on Oxygen if anybody would be willing to play some games.
+6 / -0
GBrankTheSponge
10 years ago
(edited 10 years ago)
I've been saying this for literally years. Supported turret creep is way too strong, especially on small maps. More cheap artillery would be good and I think it's important for that artillery to be accurate with reasonable DPS. It takes ages for a hammer to kill a defender because it keeps missing.
+0 / -0

CArankPxtl
10 years ago
(edited 10 years ago)
Imho, the lotus and defender are individually fine, but the tandem combination of them is tricky. Defenders are easily handled by a decent mass of raiders but lotus-turrets are a decent riot unit. Lotus turrets are handled well by skirms. The pairing of them is the hard part.

Even a weight-increase isntead of a nerf would be good, because it would mean it would be harder to build up a tandem mass.

Personally I'd go with raising the weight on the Defender, encouraging more use of Lotus turrets and thus more emphasis on skirmishers to break porc instead of pure massed raiders.

But again, I'm a terrible player, I'll defer to the experts on this one.
+1 / -0

DErankMagman
10 years ago
The problem is if you nerf defender there is nothing vs. air start. If you nerf lotus the startup lotus to protect your fac is to expensiv. Thats why I didn't start this thread with nerf nerf but with more low cost arty units.
+4 / -0

NLrank[XIV]Floris
10 years ago
Or to bring this one up again:

Bind all defenses to the energy grid.

2 - 4 E to power an llt / defender?
+4 / -0
GBrankTheSponge
10 years ago
quote:
If you nerf lotus the startup lotus to protect your fac is to expensiv.

A starting LLT isn't necessary. Plenty of us do fine without it.
+0 / -0


EErankAdminAnarchid
10 years ago
(edited 10 years ago)
quote:
2 - 4 E to power an llt / defender?

Problem with that: a stray glaive EMG shot glances off a solar -> your laser is offline -> you realise that this sucks, and never build Lotus again.

OTOH i guess things that provide less fallible grid (pylons) will be more used. Decrease pylon cost?
+2 / -0
RUrankbanana_Ai
10 years ago
(edited 10 years ago)

Artillery should be more epic. And I think cheap arty like Hammer could deal w/ defenders spam. Why no to add some cheap arty into any lab?
+0 / -0
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