| 1 |
It's an interesting set of games, particularly for all the interactions between Kodachi, Scorcher, Dart and Fencer. I'd say the greatest improvement would be to have @Sigero and @katastrophe swap sides occasionally. This is a good way to check whether @Sigero is learning how to beat Tank with Rover, or whether he is just learning how to beat @katastrophe.
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1 |
It's an interesting set of games, particularly for all the interactions between Kodachi, Scorcher, Dart and Fencer. I'd say the greatest improvement would be to have @Sigero and @katastrophe swap sides occasionally. This is a good way to check whether @Sigero is learning how to beat Tank with Rover, or whether he is just learning how to beat @katastrophe.
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| 2 |
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| 3 |
I think playing the same map and matchup is completely fine. The aim of this sort of testing is often to check whether a matchup has a problem, not to somehow prove that it doesn't. A matchup has a problem if it plays poorly on any reasonably generic map, so we only need to care about one map. Sure, it is useful to know where the matchup works and where it doesn't, but for most testing a single map is fine.
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I think playing the same map and matchup is completely fine. The aim of this sort of testing is often to check whether a matchup has a problem, not to somehow prove that it doesn't. A matchup has a problem if it plays poorly on any reasonably generic map, so we only need to care about one map. Sure, it is useful to know where the matchup works and where it doesn't, but for most testing a single map is fine.
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| 5 |
Playing the same matchup is also fine. Some unrealistic build specialisation can appear as a result of it, but that is often not too hard to correct for in further testing. A matchup is still a problem if a specific blind rush or defense is required to avoid degenerate behaviour.
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Playing the same matchup is also fine. Some unrealistic build specialisation can appear as a result of it, but that is often not too hard to correct for in further testing. A matchup is still a problem if a specific blind rush or defense is required to avoid degenerate behaviour.
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| 7 |
I wrote a few notes about the games.
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7 |
I wrote a few notes about the games.
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| 8 |
[spoiler]
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[spoiler]
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| 9 |
http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/946422
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9 |
http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/946422
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| 10 |
Rover focuses on Fencer. Tank makes few Kodachi, naked expands instead. Tank gets economy. Fencers end up outclassed by Minotaur. Kodachi still used for raids. Rover makes a lot of Scorcher and Fencer. Tank resigns.
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10 |
Rover focuses on Fencer. Tank makes few Kodachi, naked expands instead. Tank gets economy. Fencers end up outclassed by Minotaur. Kodachi still used for raids. Rover makes a lot of Scorcher and Fencer. Tank resigns.
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| 12 |
http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/946426
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http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/946426
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| 13 |
Early Dart corners a Kodachi but nothing occurs. Lots of maneuvering. Tank resign, probably doesn't feel like there is any way to deal with some early Fencers.
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13 |
Early Dart corners a Kodachi but nothing occurs. Lots of maneuvering. Tank resign, probably doesn't feel like there is any way to deal with some early Fencers.
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| 15 |
http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/946428
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http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/946428
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| 16 |
More agressive Kodachi. Tank resigns early after losing some Kodachi
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16 |
More agressive Kodachi. Tank resigns early after losing some Kodachi
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| 18 |
http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/946443
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http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/946443
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| 19 |
Kodachi hit by Dart+Scorcher and survives. Tank contains and naked expansions. Rover trades raiding armies and then pushes with Fencer. Econ adv for Tank. Evened up by Fencer/Dart/Scorcher. Kodachi balls trade with Rover. Lots of Dart. Kodachi has trouble vs Fencer, both around 1k. Tank makes Minotaurs and rolls mid. Loses momentum to repairing Minotaurs, but possibly could have pushed and won anyway. Twice. Nine Minotaurs chased away by six Domi, seems like the Mino could just take that. Twelve Kodachi attack six Domi. Domi live and Tank resigns. I really feel like this was Tank's game to lose.
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19 |
Kodachi hit by Dart+Scorcher and survives. Tank contains and naked expansions. Rover trades raiding armies and then pushes with Fencer. Econ adv for Tank. Evened up by Fencer/Dart/Scorcher. Kodachi balls trade with Rover. Lots of Dart. Kodachi has trouble vs Fencer, both around 1k. Tank makes Minotaurs and rolls mid. Loses momentum to repairing Minotaurs, but possibly could have pushed and won anyway. Twice. Nine Minotaurs chased away by six Domi, seems like the Mino could just take that. Twelve Kodachi attack six Domi. Domi live and Tank resigns. I really feel like this was Tank's game to lose.
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| 21 |
http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/946449
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http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/946449
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| 22 |
Kodachi pushed against the top of the map and dies to Scorcher Dart. Tank gets contained and trades a few more Kodachi. Resigns.
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Kodachi pushed against the top of the map and dies to Scorcher Dart. Tank gets contained and trades a few more Kodachi. Resigns.
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http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/946451
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http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/946451
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| 25 |
Well executed 2x Dart + Scorcher kills an early Kodachi. Scorcher kills a Welder. Tank resigns.
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Well executed 2x Dart + Scorcher kills an early Kodachi. Scorcher kills a Welder. Tank resigns.
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http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/946453
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http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/946453
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| 28 |
Tank starts 2x Welder. It is scouted and both die to about 500 in Rover raiders. Tank resigns.
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Tank starts 2x Welder. It is scouted and both die to about 500 in Rover raiders. Tank resigns.
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http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/946455
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http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/946455
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| 31 |
Two Kodachi into a contain by Tank. Tank spams Welder while trying to tie up Rover with a few Kodachi. Rover builds up Scorcher and Dart and managed to expand. Tank resigns.
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Two Kodachi into a contain by Tank. Tank spams Welder while trying to tie up Rover with a few Kodachi. Rover builds up Scorcher and Dart and managed to expand. Tank resigns.
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http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/946458
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http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/946458
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| 34 |
Two Kodachi from Tank. Minimal Kodachi used to tie up Rover raiders. Rover pushes with Scorcher and Fencer, killed by slightly less in Kodachi. Rover expanded a lot more. Tank resigns.
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Two Kodachi from Tank. Minimal Kodachi used to tie up Rover raiders. Rover pushes with Scorcher and Fencer, killed by slightly less in Kodachi. Rover expanded a lot more. Tank resigns.
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| 35 |
[/spoiler]
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[/spoiler]
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| 36 |
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| 37 |
My main conclusion from the games is that the matchup appears to be working so far. I think @Sigero was adapting to @katastrophe's attempts to force aggressive Kodachi play, and the aggressive play did not seem too powerful here. If it turns out that Rover can handily beat Tank while Rover is making three unit types and Tank is only making Kodachi, then perhaps this is a reasonable starting point and it is time to work on bring Blitz into the interactions. I mostly think that we don't have the breadth of data to say much more than 'seems fine so far'.
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My main conclusion from the games is that the matchup appears to be working so far. I think @Sigero was adapting to @katastrophe's attempts to force aggressive Kodachi play, and the aggressive play did not seem too powerful here. If it turns out that Rover can handily beat Tank while Rover is making three unit types and Tank is only making Kodachi, then perhaps this is a reasonable starting point and it is time to work on bring Blitz into the interactions. I mostly think that we don't have the breadth of data to say much more than 'seems fine so far'.
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| 39 |
@katastrophe since you singled out Game 9 I took a closer look. What struck me is how Tank spends relatively little metal in Kodachi to tie up the Rover forces for a long time. I think Tank did pretty well to do this, but then did not use the advantage to make a better economy. Here is how the game looks at 3:00.
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@katastrophe since you singled out Game 9 I took a closer look. What struck me is how Tank spends relatively little metal in Kodachi to tie up the Rover forces for a long time. I think Tank did pretty well to do this, but then did not use the advantage to make a better economy. Here is how the game looks at 3:00.
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https://i.imgur.com/zrOcmxI.png
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https://i.imgur.com/zrOcmxI.png
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| 41 |
By 3:00 the Rover player has only seen three Kodachis, having not scouted any structures at all. Another Kodachi is about to appear in two seconds. I marked when and where the Kodachis appear on the map and played out an opening which hits those timings. My economy is a bit wobbly because I avoided using Wind and hitting the timings was a little awkward. Here is the result.
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By 3:00 the Rover player has only seen three Kodachis, having not scouted any structures at all. Another Kodachi is about to appear in two seconds. I marked when and where the Kodachis appear on the map and played out an opening which hits those timings. My economy is a bit wobbly because I avoided using Wind and hitting the timings was a little awkward. Here is the result.
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| 42 |
https://i.imgur.com/uB2JWoS.png
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https://i.imgur.com/uB2JWoS.png
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| 43 |
To
be
clear,
the
Rover
player
could
not
know
whether
they
were
playing
against
the
game
that
happened
or
my
expansion
pattern.
The
radar
coverage
you
see
in
the
screenshot
of
the
actual
game
is
as
far
as
has
been
scouted.
To
me
this
says
that
Tank
could
gain
a
lot
from
this
type
of
opening.
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43 |
To
be
clear,
the
Rover
player
could
not
know
whether
they
were
playing
against
the
game
that
happened
or
my
expansion
pattern.
The
radar
coverage
you
see
in
the
screenshot
of
the
actual
game
is
as
far
as
has
been
scouted.
To
me
this
indicates
that
there
is
more
to
explore
in
this
matchup.
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| 44 |
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| 45 |
I don't know if much more can be said about @Anarchid's game. To me it looked like he gave up map control by starting in the corner, making two turrets and leaving his commander idle when it could have been pushing in. There is no point trying to catch out the Kodachi with Scorcher+Dart when there is no viable target for the Kodachi. On a map that small I would have liked to see more Ripper.
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45 |
I don't know if much more can be said about @Anarchid's game. To me it looked like he gave up map control by starting in the corner, making two turrets and leaving his commander idle when it could have been pushing in. There is no point trying to catch out the Kodachi with Scorcher+Dart when there is no viable target for the Kodachi. On a map that small I would have liked to see more Ripper.
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rover - tanks and kodachi