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the Slow Clickers

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12 years ago
A friend of mine, Rob, has bemoaned the need to be everywhere at once in these games.

He knows how to play, and has a build order down, but he had two bones to pick with the game so far:

1. Too much micro needed for Rob
2. Too complex for Rob (not sure how legitimate this was, considering how he multi-facked up)

Normally I would dismiss these as the complaints of a noob, and that enjoyment would come with time, but he has played other strategy games well. For instance, I find myself getting my ass kicked at slower games like SoSE, or Total War. I have also found Rob an effective ally in larger 0K games, where people like myself can run interference for the guys who have the right idea but less micro power.

Anyway, it got me thinking, Squirrels on amphetamines (ahem) probably have an advantage in Zero-K game over the longer-term thinkers, but there must be some way to ameliorate this disadvantage with the proper choice of the following:

Strategy - (Choice of rush vs. map control)
Tactics - (Raider Tanks require less micro than Comm Rush)
Units - (Skirmishers require less micro)
Unit AI - (Assign a group to a helper CAI?)
Clever UI use - (Ferry routes, repeat build)
UI Add-Ons - (for example, the Area Mex)

If there are some ways for a more, ah, "strategic" player to keep up the crazed rodentia with 70 APM out there, I would both be interested.

Hold forth!
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Skasi
12 years ago
Uh, "rushing" is kinda the basis for strategy. If you don't have to collect information, where lies the strategy? If you don't know anything about your enemy, where lies the strategy? I don't understand what you mean by "choice of rush vs map control".

Tactics aint strategy. ZK is not a pure RTS and nowhere near. Anyway, commanders require more micro than raider tanks.

I keep telling people I've got insanely low APM. I've just checked a replay of me and realized this isn't true. It's probably because I press every button trice just to make sure. I assign the same units to a unit group three times. I give units the same line formation order three times just to have it "perfect". I select all x units three times to make sure I really have ALL of them. That's probably the reason my elo aint higher.

All I can think of are hotkeys and priority-management or however you call it. It is possible to create a hotkey for any action, it is possible to create complex selection-hotkeys (eg select all idle raiders with a range below 100 and full health). "Strategic" players should probably help developing ZK and add an option to join a team without any units. You'd spend the whole time drawing things, placing markers, etc. Team games and voip play (although I've never done that) are probably the best ways for strategic playing.
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12 years ago
I take it he hasn't played StarCraft :P

Anyway, there are many things like you mentioned that help with micromanagement of your army. I can't live without area-mex. I even use it for single metal spots XD

If he is having trouble being "everywhere at once" I'd suggest for him to try and play zoomed out further. You don't need to see the units and individual fighting if you are trying to be strategic.

The auto-skirmish and fight widgets are decent. Granted, it might not always be the best idea to always fight-move in... but that is not a matter of micro. Its just knowing when to fight and when not to.

Shift-queuing economy can also really, really help. Ideally you'd have at least one constructor always building some sort of energy, whether it be windmills, solars, fusions, etc. en mass. (spread out to provide linkage ofc.)
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Skasi
12 years ago
That's not an rts at all, meanie maackey.

Ah yep I nearly forgot that. I keep telling players who I think end up tunnel-visioned or fail at macro to ask themselves every minute or two whether they think they could micro just as efficient if they zoomed out a tad more.
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12 years ago
If things start getting too fast paced I'll remind Rob to just try zooming out a bit.

Maackey: Thanks for your advice on the last two "slow clicker" categories, UI use and Add-Ons.

I will need to have him get the area mex add-on.

Any more tricks for the APM challenged?
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12 years ago
I'll see if I can look up a hotkey suite or something. Failing that, I'll try to at least lurn Rob the basic hotkeys, and come up with some custom ones for the actions/selections he fails at.

""Strategic" players should probably ... placing markers, etc."
That is perfect!
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12 years ago
Licho sometimes AFK's in the middle of games. He often just gives fight orders from his factory and then makes long build queues with his cons.

This might just say something about the calibre of his enemies, but he still wins a lot this way. What really wins game is taking and securing more territory faster, and staying on top of your e/m/bp balance. If anything, Zero-K handles too much for you.
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12 years ago
Then I would say - he plays one of this things:
noob games.
nice team support games ( he get supported ).
he do this only if he has nearly the map control.
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12 years ago
ScarySquirrel: Areamex is already included in the game, just enable it with f11 menu.

Hotkeys really enable you to do things quite faster than other methods (even gesture menu is slow by comparison) so if he is having trouble with specific things being slow its a really good idea to bind them to hotkeys. Editing uikeys.txt is pretty easy already, and the Chili menu lets you bind a lot of stuff with a nice menu from ingame so you don't even have to touch any configuration files.
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12 years ago
Using priorities really helps a ton.

I usually put my factory on low priority at start, and then anything making mexes at high priority. You want those mexes to start paying back as soon as possible, while the factory is best for just burning that extra resource into units after economy and defences get their share.

Also learn to queue. Like a ton. As much queuing as possible. Once you have a huge queue up for a unit and you can pretty much just leave it be and not worry about managing it. Usually on builders I end their queue with a reclaim order that covers the entire map, so I can usually be sure that they will be busy until they die.

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Skasi
12 years ago
"Usually on builders I end their queue with a reclaim order that covers the entire map", yay doing it all the time. It makes them heroes! Martyrs! :D

You might want to put two or three different reclaim orders at the end of their queue though: One to cover your entire base, where it's save and they wont die, then a second to reclaim the front, just a tad before the enemy static defense and then a third to cover the whole map. This stops them from suiciding too early. :)

Uhm, does your friend know about the very basic hotkeys and custom formations, Squirrel? I guess I'll have to write a manual on these once, if not.
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12 years ago
Skasi, Rob does not know any of the basic hotkeys, and I do not think he knows about the custom formations either.
I did try to teach him about priorities and the build queue, but that backfired when he alternated a queue of one MERL and one riot tank.

The main thing is just for him to get familiar with ZK's "unlimited queue" in general, which is an unfamiliar concept to some.

By the way, thanks for the tips everybody. Now I can use them myself to beat you all.

In the event that I can convince Rob to play one more game, I'm going to have him play against the CAI.
I will spectate and try to llurnn him a few of these techniques, starting with Area Mex and the queue. I'll try to take a video in the mean time. Perhaps we can add snippets of video to a tutorial.

--ScarySquirrel
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12 years ago
If you are playing vehicles, a great combo for just steamrolling on a flat map is 1 leveler 3 ravager.

With the repeat, tell him to think of it as deciding what proportions he wants his army to be. With my previous suggestion, his army composition will be 75% ravager and 25% leveler. It is better to think in percentages of army composition rather than numbers.

Some people like to add in 1 or 2 cons with their build, but I prefer to alt-click cons to insert them into the build queue (inserting with alt means they won't repeat) when I decide I need cons.
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12 years ago
"Some people like to add in 1 or 2 cons with their build, but I prefer to alt-click cons to insert them into the build queue (inserting with alt means they won't repeat) when I decide I need cons. "
Totally did not know that.
If I get all my studying done, I'm back on the game tomorrow.
With all mah new UI skillz, you guys are going to wish you hadn't postid.

Also, Skasi, if you wrote a manual, I would read it. It might even get people to post video links next to different hotkeys. Just sayin.
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12 years ago
"(inserting with alt means they won't repeat)"
Totally did not know that either!
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12 years ago
holding ctrl will multiply the amount queued by 5, shift by 20 (maybe got those backwards) for both adding and removing into a normal queue or alt-inserting.

can you guess what holding alt+shift will do? :P
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