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Title: MM 3976: 1v1, Rank Singularity
Host: Nobody
Game version: Zero-K v1.8.2.7
Engine version: 104.0.1-1435-g79d77ca
Battle ID: 840590
Started: 4 years ago
Duration: 22 minutes
Players: 2
Bots: False
Mission: False
Rating: Competitive
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Team 1
Chance of victory: 66.9%

GBrankDregs
Team 2
Chance of victory: 33.1%

GBrank[Fx]Drone

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4 years ago
AUrankAdminGoogleFrog Watch this, I saw minotaurs coming at me from a mile away, they literally just went around my goliath because it couldnt keep up with their speed, there was literally no unit in my lab that I could make to counter minotaurs, there was no porc I could build to counter minotaurs. He just move command them into the back of my base and I lost my fusion.

Id love for you to tell me what the correct play was here because as far as I can tell the only answer to minotaur is minotaur. Ogres were straight up lost metal, they didnt do a single thing.
+0 / -0

4 years ago
Light spammy raiders are supposed to counter minotaur but tank doesnt have any raiders. Requiring fac switch into glaive spam is retarded. Pretty sure minotaur wasn't like this before. Another dumb change?
+0 / -0

4 years ago
Also note that probably not even 1 porc turret made cost in this game. Is porc just a noob trap now? Even with the Ogres which arent assault units I just A-moved across his whole porc line lol.
+0 / -0

4 years ago
This is also another example of how the attacker is ALWAYS favored now and defensive playstyle is a thing of the past
+1 / -0


4 years ago
If Minotaurs are unbeatable by tanks then demonstrate by just making them in this matchup. If they only beat you in this particular situation, well then you got outmaneuvered and outplayed. Why should you be able to reactively counter 3k metal in army coming towards your base with 30 seconds notice?

Ogre is in fact not good against Minotaur. This doesn't matter so much since the game design in no way guarantees that you should be able to play out the game with a single factory. When armies regularly cost 4x as much as a factory it is often in your interest to make unit types outside your starting factory.

You're attributing a lot of this game to changes. Very little has changed in Tank vs. Tank, with the biggest changes being the turn rate and heavier mexes.

If porc literally never makes cost, and if this is even a valid way of evaluating its power, then don't make porc. See how it goes for you.

Meanwhile...
+2 / -0

4 years ago
quote:
Why should you be able to reactively counter 3k metal in army coming towards your base with 30 seconds notice?

I was aware of his minotaur army for some time. The cyclops I made was because cyclops was one time the counter to heavy units like this. However cyclops has had a speed nerf among other things, the minotaurs completely ignored it because he knew it couldnt catch up to them. Between my cyclops and the ogres I had I probably had similar army value but the ogres were worthless and the cyclops was too slow and my porc did nothing so it's exactly as I said, minotaur is the only counter to minotaur in this matchup. However that doesn't mean minotaurs would stop minotaurs here, no- the advantage is always with the attacker.

Making a new lab is a significant investment since they are expensive now and its hard to afford that in an even game when you can lose the momentum so quickly and air lab is almost always the best 2nd lab option.

Also yes youre right I should have stopped playing sim city playstyle a long time ago, I've always thought it was inferior to just relying on mobile defence but I do it because its more fun and used to be a viable way to play.
+0 / -0
tank used to be blitz wars, rover used to be scorcher wars but they both kept getting nerfed

since assault dies to raiders, they were rarely made, and since assaults (and arty) are counter to porc, porc spam was useful

but it went from raider meta to assault meta, now ravager and minotaur get spammed, proc is useless and attackers always have the advantage because low dps, high hp assualts wreck bases before low dps, high hp assaults can prevent it

hence, this is a dumb meta

porc already got nerfed over and over again in the raider meta, now ZK gameplay is just making a blob and jostling for position with your enemy and the winner is whoever can get their blob in the enemy net first like in this game or the snow map I told u to watch, if this is the intended game design of ZK then fine but its not fun to play or even watch for me (boring tournament)
+0 / -0
I would like to submit Multiplayer B840895 2 on Red Comet v1.3 as backing to Drone's sentiment.

In my match with Dyth, I honestly believe that time spent making anything that wasn't a minotaur (See 1 emmissary, 1 ogre and 2 cyclops) caused me to lose the game. This is in spite of the fact that I managed to terraform bury his first advance - I still lost anyway, just to demonstrate how bad it is to deviate from mino-monospam.

Later I switched to glaives to try to outnumber the minos but the glaives were easily hit by his retreating minos and were too little too late. I do suspect that they don't serve as a counter anymore. All this at a time where I think Glaives are OP.

What this leads me to believe is that Drone is right, the first player to attack the enemy base (which both can and should do) will win a mino fight. There's no stopping the minos from entering and destroying your base, not with minos, not with anything. Edit: Ok, my terraform kinda helped here but that was very, very lucky positioning and timing on my part. This rarely goes so well.

When I think about what CAN counter mino now, I'm only getting gnat and ultimatum. Are there more? Used to be dominatrix which would have been great here, but that's no longer true either.

So as far as I'm concerned, kodachi/glaives into minos is THE 1v1 ground meta and there is something of a problem here.
+1 / -0


4 years ago
Cyclops are almost even with Minotaurs in a standup fight if you can catch them...

If there's only one or two Minotaurs then plenty of things can weaken them very cost effectively. For instance a pair of Minotaurs will be worn down and driven off by 4-5 glaives and 4 Ronins. Or weakened by a Lance or Sniper over time.


But yeah, once you get >4 Minotaurs you need specialists like a Placeholder (stealth OP), Moderators, Domi+Shieldballs, Ultimatums or Thunderbirds (or a Funnelweb). But when someone is spending >4K on army you can afford 1050 for the fac+placeholder...

Technically most other assault balls will beat them in a standup fight (Knights, Halberds, Hermits, Ravagers...), it's just auto-retreat makes them tricky to kill off permanently.
+0 / -0
quote:
In my match with Dyth, I honestly believe that time spent making anything that wasn't a minotaur (See 1 emmissary, 1 ogre and 2 cyclops) caused me to lose the game. This is in spite of the fact that I managed to terraform bury his first advance - I still lost anyway, just to demonstrate how bad it is to deviate from mino-monospam.

Having watched that game, i disagree. Most times when Dyth's Minotaurs met with your blitz-ball they ended up swarmed and stunned and doomed ... except then you would inexplicably retreat rather than finalize the kill. So Minotaurs would escape and come back in bigger numbers right until they hit the critical mass required for not caring about anything except ulti and terraform.

Terraform was absolutely insane.
+1 / -0
4 years ago
Blitz? Not that it mattered much at that point, Sparkles was dragging you by the nose the entire game. The advantage of him having those Minotaurs and you having nothing to counter them was built over the entire game. No idea why you expect him to not go around your Cyclops (or is your complaint about Cyclops being slower than Minotaur?) when it's way outside your base and you have nothing to force the engagement in its location.

Red Comet game was even worse. Sparkles made several awful decisions to engage when there was no need to do so and many, many micro mistakes. There seemed to be some skill gap in favor of Sparkles, but Dyth didn't make any big mistakes whereas Sparkles' mistakes quickly piled up and put him into a disadvantageous position.


Bad play isn't a balance issue.
+0 / -0

4 years ago
Raiders only work so long as there are no riots. Doesnt take long to figure that out before both sides stop making raiders and riots altogether. Although in the case of rovers I think people continue to spam ripper all game because its overtuned.

In this game the RPS progression from kodachi to blitz to ogre to minotaur took about 2 minutes lol. Then @Sparkles stuck with minotaur and I foolishly was trying to make ogres work.
+0 / -0
4 years ago
Sparkles started building first Minotaur of the game at 11:40, give or take a few seconds. At this point your comm was dead and you were already losing hold of both of your flank expansions.
+0 / -0

4 years ago
I wasnt doing too badly before minotaurs got in my base, com dying isnt the end of the world

im surprised the ogre stage lasted that long though, I bet if we replayed the game it would be quicker to minotaurs
+0 / -0
4 years ago
That comm dying was pretty bad though. It was the only build power you had on your left flank, so it dying meant your left flank expansion ability got crippled. You'd already lost the Welders on far right flank, so now both of your flanks could only passively wait for Sparkles' action.

I agree that the storage/income loss would've been borderline whatever if you'd had a Welder on left flank to continue the comm's work.
+0 / -0

4 years ago
It's good to get second opinions from clearer heads, thanks Anarchid / Huix. Definitely food for thought.
+0 / -0

4 years ago
Its a weird criticism to say I should have kept my cyclops in my base all game simply because it cant move fast and that I had no expansion when I owned the whole south and had plenty of cons. The loss of a com was really not that bad. Having half my base blow up was. None of the intricacies of who was winning or how the game was going is even particularly related to the overall state of balance. You havent said anything that has changed my mind about this meta being all assault spam.

I've seen enough games during tournament and before it to say pretty conclusively that vehicle maps are entirely assault meta, porc is useless and whoever blobs the enemy base first wins. I wasn't really looking for feedback, I'm just trying to get AUrankAdminGoogleFrog to see how stupid ZK has become.
+0 / -0
4 years ago
I doubt keeping the Cyclops in base would've helped either. Sparkles could've just fortified his map control and steamroll you later. That said, he also had no reason to engage with a Cyclops that's more than half map away from his base, so meh. Lose lose.

Tank mirrors might be assault spam and first blob to reach the base like you said, considering how Minotaurs are the essential unit without a proper in-fac counter. You can fac swap though, which makes in-fac complaints pretty moot unless you can convincingly point out that switching to any other fac wouldn't help much against Mino spam.
+0 / -0

4 years ago
What are some other factories honest answers to Mino?

The criteria being that they are faster and can out-move them (thus defend/offend) and finish them off, and are more cost effective.
+0 / -0

4 years ago
Having done some testing with placeholders I can safely say that this isn't the answer: their lack of "overkill prevention" means they will overlap capture zones and require a good deal of micro to, on average, pin 2 minos. The enemy player can spread their minos. Also, placeholding them does nothing to help in the killing of them. For this reason, I'm ruling this unit out as a good answer.
+0 / -0
Page of 2 (27 records)