| 1 |
[size=5][b]Some History[/b][/size]
|
1 |
[size=5][b]Some History[/b][/size]
|
| 2 |
\n
|
2 |
\n
|
| 3 |
About three years ago @TheEloIsALie made [url=http://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/3909?postID=44744#44744]an offhand suggestion[/url] to swap Fight and Attack, for the following reason:
|
3 |
About three years ago @TheEloIsALie made [url=http://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/3909?postID=44744#44744]an offhand suggestion[/url] to swap Fight and Attack, for the following reason:
|
| 4 |
\n
|
4 |
\n
|
| 5 |
[quote] the controls were very strange at first for me … If you're used to attack-move your units, it's extremely annoying if they attack the ground you clicked instead of enemies on their way.[/quote]
|
5 |
[quote] the controls were very strange at first for me … If you're used to attack-move your units, it's extremely annoying if they attack the ground you clicked instead of enemies on their way.[/quote]
|
| 6 |
@GoogleFrog implemented the suggestion right away without any public discussion beforehand. It came out in the v1.1.1.1 update, and was [url=http://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/3931]discussed quite a bit after the fact.[/url] Some liked the change, some didn't. The change was reverted shortly afterwards, not because of the player complaints, but rather:
|
6 |
@GoogleFrog implemented the suggestion right away without any public discussion beforehand. It came out in the v1.1.1.1 update, and was [url=http://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/3931]discussed quite a bit after the fact.[/url] Some liked the change, some didn't. The change was reverted shortly afterwards, not because of the player complaints, but rather:
|
| 7 |
\n
|
7 |
\n
|
| 8 |
[quote][GoogleFrog] Firstly the manuals need updating and nobody knows the extent/can't be bothered. But more importantly the ingame menu messes some things around such that changing uikey.txt causes problems.
|
8 |
[quote][GoogleFrog] Firstly the manuals need updating and nobody knows the extent/can't be bothered. But more importantly the ingame menu messes some things around such that changing uikey.txt causes problems.
|
| 9 |
\n
|
9 |
\n
|
| 10 |
[Licho] Reasons were technical - keybindings were switching randomly in the middle of game for some people.[/quote]
|
10 |
[Licho] Reasons were technical - keybindings were switching randomly in the middle of game for some people.[/quote]
|
| 11 |
It came up again about two years ago when a webcast-for-charity played Zero-K. The casters, who had no experience with Zero-K, attacked ground when they wanted to attack-move. @jseah [url=http://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/5960?postID=71590#71590]commented[/url] on it, GoogleFrog [url=http://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/5960?postID=71635#71635]commented[/url] on it, and nothing happened. Then a while after that @Firestorm_01 [url=http://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/7679?postID=94208]brought it up as an issue[/url] in the Steam Greenlight thread. There was a little bit of discussion and then nothing happened.
|
11 |
It came up again about two years ago when a webcast-for-charity played Zero-K. The casters, who had no experience with Zero-K, attacked ground when they wanted to attack-move. @jseah [url=http://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/5960?postID=71590#71590]commented[/url] on it, GoogleFrog [url=http://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/5960?postID=71635#71635]commented[/url] on it, and nothing happened. Then a while after that @Firestorm_01 [url=http://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/7679?postID=94208]brought it up as an issue[/url] in the Steam Greenlight thread. There was a little bit of discussion and then nothing happened.
|
| 12 |
\n
|
12 |
\n
|
| 13 |
Last week Firestorm_01 [url=http://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/21064?postID=152195#152195]mentioned it again[/url] in the What Would You Change thread, and this time GoogleFrog decided to try it again.
|
13 |
Last week Firestorm_01 [url=http://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/21064?postID=152195#152195]mentioned it again[/url] in the What Would You Change thread, and this time GoogleFrog decided to try it again.
|
| 14 |
\n
|
14 |
\n
|
| 15 |
----
|
15 |
----
|
| 16 |
\n
|
16 |
\n
|
| 17 |
[size=5][b]Pros and Cons[/b][/size]
|
17 |
[size=5][b]Pros and Cons[/b][/size]
|
| 18 |
\n
|
18 |
\n
|
| 19 |
Points that have been raised in favor of this change:
|
19 |
Points that have been raised in favor of this change:
|
| 20 |
\n
|
20 |
\n
|
| 21 |
* Attack-move on A is standard.
|
21 |
* Attack-move on A is standard.
|
| 22 |
* New players expect attack-move on A.
|
22 |
* New players expect attack-move on A.
|
| 23 |
* New players will have a hard time getting used to the different controls in Zero-K.
|
23 |
* New players will have a hard time getting used to the different controls in Zero-K.
|
| 24 |
* Having Zero-K's attack on A leads new players to fire at ground when they mean to attack-move.
|
24 |
* Having Zero-K's attack on A leads new players to fire at ground when they mean to attack-move.
|
| 25 |
\n
|
25 |
\n
|
| 26 |
[quote][GoogleFrog] Here is the reason for the change: People used to pressing A then clicking as their standard move order will not have stupid units. The change affects absolutely nobody else.
|
26 |
[quote][GoogleFrog] Here is the reason for the change: People used to pressing A then clicking as their standard move order will not have stupid units. The change affects absolutely nobody else.
|
| 27 |
\n
|
27 |
\n
|
| 28 |
[quote]Do you think they turn down from the game because with "a" a unit attacks the ground, thinking they could not attack other units properly?[/quote]
|
28 |
[quote]Do you think they turn down from the game because with "a" a unit attacks the ground, thinking they could not attack other units properly?[/quote]
|
| 29 |
[GoogleFrog] Yes.[/quote]
|
29 |
[GoogleFrog] Yes.[/quote]
|
| 30 |
\n
|
30 |
\n
|
| 31 |
Points that have been raised in opposition to this change:
|
31 |
Points that have been raised in opposition to this change:
|
| 32 |
\n
|
32 |
\n
|
| 33 |
* The manuals need updating.
|
33 |
* The manuals need updating.
|
| 34 |
\n
|
34 |
\n
|
| 35 |
* There are other games where A attacks ground instead of doing attack-move.
|
35 |
* There are other games where A attacks ground instead of doing attack-move.
|
| 36 |
* There are other games where attack-move is bound to a key other than A.
|
36 |
* There are other games where attack-move is bound to a key other than A.
|
| 37 |
* We should not try to model ourselves after other games, because other games are different from each other.
|
37 |
* We should not try to model ourselves after other games, because other games are different from each other.
|
| 38 |
\n
|
38 |
\n
|
| 39 |
* Not all new players coming from Starcraft have a hard time getting used to the different controls in Zero-K.
|
39 |
* Not all new players coming from Starcraft have a hard time getting used to the different controls in Zero-K.
|
| 40 |
* Some new players don't even use attack, fight, or attack-move at all, they just move their units. This works in Zero-K because units will fire while moving. This also works in other games for the same reason.
|
40 |
* Some new players don't even use attack, fight, or attack-move at all, they just move their units. This works in Zero-K because units will fire while moving. This also works in other games for the same reason.
|
| 41 |
* It's easy to discover that Attack targets ground.
|
41 |
* It's easy to discover that Attack targets ground.
|
| 42 |
* It's easy to discover that Move lets your units fire at the enemy.
|
42 |
* It's easy to discover that Move lets your units fire at the enemy.
|
| 43 |
\n
|
43 |
\n
|
| 44 |
* The "attack" key should let you select targets, whether individuals or via area commands.
|
44 |
* The "attack" key should let you select targets, whether individuals or via area commands.
|
| 45 |
* Having Fight on F helps makes it clear that Fight is not just attack-move from other games.
|
45 |
* Having Fight on F helps makes it clear that Fight is not just attack-move from other games.
|
| 46 |
* Fight as a term is unique to Zero-K, as are the mechanics and behavior of Fight (auto-skirm, etc).
|
46 |
* Fight as a term is unique to Zero-K, as are the mechanics and behavior of Fight (auto-skirm, etc).
|
| 47 |
* Zero-K's Fight command is not the same as attack-move. It is semantically and functionally different.
|
47 |
* Zero-K's Fight command is not the same as attack-move. It is semantically and functionally different.
|
| 48 |
* Zero-K's Attack command is not the same as other games' force-fire command. It is semantically and functionally different.
|
48 |
* Zero-K's Attack command is not the same as other games' force-fire command. It is semantically and functionally different.
|
| 49 |
* Renaming Fight and Attack to Attack-Move and Force Fire is an increase in semantic complexity that obscures the true behaviour of fight and attack in ZK.
|
49 |
* Renaming Fight and Attack to Attack-Move and Force Fire is an increase in semantic complexity that obscures the true behaviour of fight and attack in ZK.
|
| 50 |
\n
|
50 |
\n
|
| 51 |
[quote][satowar]This game Zero-K is a work of art and should not change its essence so slightly to please a few or many who come from other RTS games. The theme is identity, current followers Zero-K are long accustomed to the old way, change the style to try to be like other RTS mean losing one's character.[/quote]
|
51 |
[quote][satowar]This game Zero-K is a work of art and should not change its essence so slightly to please a few or many who come from other RTS games. The theme is identity, current followers Zero-K are long accustomed to the old way, change the style to try to be like other RTS mean losing one's character.[/quote]
|
| 52 |
\n
|
52 |
\n
|
| 53 |
----
|
53 |
----
|
| 54 |
\n
|
54 |
\n
|
| 55 |
[size=5][b]My Opinion[/b][/size]
|
55 |
[size=5][b]My Opinion[/b][/size]
|
| 56 |
\n
|
56 |
\n
|
| 57 |
I agree with GoogleFrog. We should swap A and F so that new players don't shoot themselves in the foot when they try to attack-move. However, what we call these commands matters, and I disagree with changing their names to "attack-move" and "force fire". As @Anarchid put it:
|
57 |
I agree with GoogleFrog. We should swap A and F so that new players don't shoot themselves in the foot when they try to attack-move. However, what we call these commands matters, and I disagree with changing their names to "attack-move" and "force fire". As @Anarchid put it:
|
| 58 |
\n
|
58 |
\n
|
| 59 |
[quote]It is about the unnecessary and thus harmful increase in semantic complexity of this new nomenclature that obscures the true behaviour of fight and attack in ZK. At best, it is useless, at worst, you have the increased clutter of useless alien terminology actively obstructing your attempts to explain the game.[/quote]
|
59 |
[quote]It is about the unnecessary and thus harmful increase in semantic complexity of this new nomenclature that obscures the true behaviour of fight and attack in ZK. At best, it is useless, at worst, you have the increased clutter of useless alien terminology actively obstructing your attempts to explain the game.[/quote]
|
| 60 |
\n
|
60 |
\n
|
| 61 |
I
propose
to
go
ahead
and
swap
the
hotkeys,
but
leave
the
names
the
same,
while
making
the
tooltips
more
explanatory:
|
61 |
[b][i]I
propose
to
go
ahead
and
swap
the
hotkeys,
but
leave
the
names
the
same,
while
making
the
tooltips
more
explanatory:[/i][/b]
|
| 62 |
\n
|
62 |
\n
|
| 63 |
A - Fight: Units move and attack at will; builders assist construction, repair, and reclaim
|
63 |
A - Fight: Units move and attack at will; builders assist construction, repair, and reclaim
|
| 64 |
\n
|
64 |
\n
|
| 65 |
F - Attack: Move towards and fire at a target; can target units or ground
|
65 |
F - Attack: Move towards and fire at a target; can target units or ground
|
| 66 |
\n
|
66 |
\n
|
| 67 |
Proponents such as GoogleFrog, TheEloIsALie, and Firestorm_01 are worried about newbies hitting A and trying to attack-move. The hotkey swap fixes that. But we can keep the terminology! The terminology will be displayed on the tooltip (and in the manuals, and on the forum, and in tutorial videos). If a new player is paying enough attention to the tooltip to read the name of the command, then they can also discover via the tooltip that Attack targets ground and Fight does an attack-move! We only have to worry about players who blindly A-click. Everyone else can learn how Zero-K actually works, and using the original nomenclature (with better tooltips) will help them do exactly that.
|
67 |
Proponents such as GoogleFrog, TheEloIsALie, and Firestorm_01 are worried about newbies hitting A and trying to attack-move. The hotkey swap fixes that. But we can keep the terminology! The terminology will be displayed on the tooltip (and in the manuals, and on the forum, and in tutorial videos). If a new player is paying enough attention to the tooltip to read the name of the command, then they can also discover via the tooltip that Attack targets ground and Fight does an attack-move! We only have to worry about players who blindly A-click. Everyone else can learn how Zero-K actually works, and using the original nomenclature (with better tooltips) will help them do exactly that.
|
| 68 |
\n
|
68 |
\n
|
| 69 |
The only odd thing is that A will be bound to something called "Fight" and F will be bound to something called "Attack". For players such as TheEloIsALie, that's actually fine - he's said many times that he had difficulty adjusting to Zero-K, but with the keys swapped players like him will be right at home, no matter what the commands are called. A-click will still work like the A-click that they're used to; they won't have to fight their muscle memory. For anyone else, including veterans, they can easily rebind keys to make the keys match the initials of the names of the commands. Or any other scheme that strikes their fancy.
|
69 |
The only odd thing is that A will be bound to something called "Fight" and F will be bound to something called "Attack". For players such as TheEloIsALie, that's actually fine - he's said many times that he had difficulty adjusting to Zero-K, but with the keys swapped players like him will be right at home, no matter what the commands are called. A-click will still work like the A-click that they're used to; they won't have to fight their muscle memory. For anyone else, including veterans, they can easily rebind keys to make the keys match the initials of the names of the commands. Or any other scheme that strikes their fancy.
|
| 70 |
\n
|
70 |
\n
|
| 71 |
In
other
words:
let's
give
new
players
a
safety
net
by
putting
Fight
on
A.
But
let's
expect
that
they
can
and
will
learn
how
to
play
Zero-K
correctly.
Let's
help
them
build
the
conceptual
models
that
Zero-K
relies
upon;
let's
keep
the
terminology
and
semantics
as
they
are
today.
|
71 |
[b]In
other
words:[/b]
[i]Let's
give
new
players
a
safety
net
by
putting
Fight
on
A.
But
let's
expect
that
they
can
and
will
learn
how
to
play
Zero-K
correctly.
Let's
help
them
build
the
conceptual
models
that
Zero-K
relies
upon;
let's
keep
the
terminology
and
semantics
as
they
are
today.
[/i]
|
| 72 |
\n
|
72 |
\n
|
Fight and Attack: Having Our Cake And Eating It Too