Am I to stupid or is plane start OP in small maps in 1v1?

As I know from playing planez, it is more difficult to win with airstart on small map than on big. In case of battle on urban_skirmish_v1, you could build newton to trap my planes and kill 'em. Also, good rush with duck (hm... I guess somethnig like glaves would work for sure) could killed me, coz I had only bomberz.

B252362 2 on Iceland_v1
but map ain't small at all.

Eternal_Rookie, you lack scouting and sacrifice too many stuff. Since the map is small radar may be a good choice to detect flying stuff early. Also since the map is small static aa can be more viable, Razor in the middle on the urban skirmish for example. I didn't pay attention but will advise you on using build priority. Also damaging planes will make reloading slower unless your enemy try to suicide which means more bulky aa/sub-aa (any stuff that can shoot ravens) will be more useful.

I didn't really tried it myself though so I can't tell for sure if it will work.

I think we need more air start 1v1s, because sometimes I think it must be overpowered and other times it fails miserably

I watched replay B252254 2 on Fissure_wip
Factory plop is bit slow and the 2 Glaives wait a bit before moving out. But nothing really bad that should decide a game.

First bombers just waste shot on Commander (heals back) instead of shoting mex so got lucky there.

Once bomber returns there is 1x LLT, 1x Defender, 1x Jethro.
The Commander dodges the bomb by jumping. As well played as was possible until now imo. Bomber escapes with 25% health.
2nd bomber comes in immatedily afterwards and hits Commander (jump not recharged)
2nd bomber escapes too with 25% health despite the AA.

Meanwhile the 2 Glaives are not really successful, killing nothing and only disattracting Com a bit. But vs LLT and Com it can always happen that scout/raide fails.



At 3:00 minutes it is:
3 Bombers+Aircon
vs
1 LLT, 5 Defenders, 2 Jethros

The 2 Jethros move ahead a bit (scouting?) and get easily killed by the 3 bombers. (2x 60% HP, 1x 100)


@Eternal_Rookie makes more Jethros and some solars.
Spartacus_ Elo makes more Mexes with Aircon and patrolls map with 4 bombers.
I think raiding those mexes would not have worked, seeing how earlier even Jethros got bombed. Glaives would have just been bombed too, before they reach any mexes.

Bombers patrol around the map, would be hard to expand unless putting lots of AA around each mex.

When the bombers accidently fly into range of Jethros it does not harm them too much, in fact they even kill some. Eco difference is now big enough that the short AA-bot vs bomber fight is a plus for Spartacus_ Elo.

At 6:00min both Commanders meet in middle.
The Coms deal equal damage to each other but of course now the bombers come in.
The Jethros can of course not shot down all 7 bombers before they drop their bomb.
Since one bomber takes ~50% of Com HP, it only needed one of the 7 bombers to get through. Commander again dodges one bomb by jumping but then dies.
Spartacus_ Elo's Com survived with 20% HP, eats the wreck and gg.

quote: 9001 defenders

There was as many defenders as eco could buy.

quote: It may be possible to expand like crazy and win on the ground but I have not experienced this.

Did not look possible since bombers patrolled the map.
Even if cloaked cons can sneak around, the mex itself would just be bombed.

quote: If you scout them then planes will be useless.

The 1st bomber arrives so soon one has maybe 20sec warning. He was already making a turret anyway. For the later bombers..well see the text above. He made AA but it did not help.

Conclusion:
No idea what @Eternal_Rookie could have done better? He even got lucky by bombers wasting a few shots because Commanander could jump away or autoheal.
Maybe the Jethros should have chased after the damaged bombers when they returned to base? That might or might not have killed 1-2 bombers, maybe.
Maybe more luck with the first 2 Glaives?
But with Commanders producing most of the energy, there is not much to raid anyway.

quote: At 3:00 minutes it is: 3 Bombers+Aircon vs 1 LLT, 5 Defenders, 2 Jethros

3x300 + 220 = 1120m
vs
70 + 5*80 = 770m

So, where the fuck did those 350m go?

quote: patrolls map with 4 bombers.

That means 5 glaives can raid any naked mexes.



What you should do is try starting air yourself against some decent players and see how they counter you.
You will suddenly realise that your only reliable means to expand is with com, because cranes are so fragile and the few bombers you have need to reload every time they bomb a fucking flea.
Then you realise that those cranes also have the least BP/cost of all cons, and you have very hard time keeping your eco up with your aleady limited expansion.

Air is cheese. You sacrifice any chance for fast expansion in favour of quickly disabling your opponent. If you fail to cripple your opponent hard enough, you are dead.

quote: So, where the fuck did those 350m go?

Did not include buildings like solar and Eternal had cons too.

quote: That means 5 glaives can raid any naked mexes.

Not sure..How long does it take the bombers to reload? The glaives could get bombed before even reaching the mexes.
How much time does the 1 surving Glaive really have to kill any mexes, before the 1st bomber returns?
Even if it does, the Aircon just rebuilds the mexes.
And when making those Glaives he would have had fewer AA meaning the bombers can go after Commander even earlier.

quote: Then you realise that those cranes also have the least BP/cost of all cons, and you have very hard time keeping your eco up with your aleady limited expansion.

That map had 2 startmexes and the other mexes further away. Perfect for aircons..

Cf course it was just one game but I do not see what Eternal did so wrong that the game was so one-sided.

Just start with planes in an ordinary 1v1 and see what happens. Planes look pretty powerful to me but there is still plenty to know about them. I am withholding action until they become clearly boring (and they are interesting at the moment).

The recent 2v2 tournament seemed like the perfect place for people to start Planes + Land but many of the matches did not have any Plane starts. So either the players were behind in the meta or they knew something that I do not.

quote: The recent 2v2 tournament seemed like the perfect place for people to start Planes + Land but many of the matches did not have any Plane starts

Here is a game from round 1. Note how even before norm lost his com, we have been 8 m/s ahead.

When you watch the 2v2 games it becomes really obvious how much the plane player is sacrificing his eco expansion by going planes. 2v2 games with planes really look like 2 v 1+airstrikes.

I tested it with Lauri.
B252730 2 on Fissure_wip
I failed to expand but it was very easy to keep up, until he got most of the map and I got only 1-2 mexes all the time.
So it was not a even battle with a bit more expansion and not loosing com I would have won this. And I am not able to win vs. Lauri in a normal game.
so players with even skill level I would say plane start win easy.