New heavy shield support Funnelweb

Continuing from here: http://zero-k.info/Forum/Post/191423#191423

DeinFreund:

quote: quote: quote: how do you feel about Funnelweb having normal buildpower but being unable to assist? I dislike that idea as that is not present with any other constructor. It's ok to make it unable to start constructions, but I don't think disallowing it from assisting is really needed. Honestly, if it comes to the decision, I'd rather have a strong shield or a strong builder than a mediocre shield and a mediocre builder.

Is it having two unique features (shield regen delay and no assist), rather than one, a dealbreaker?
I think it being able to assist would need the buildpower turned down (or it becomes better than the equivalent mass of caretakers and Aegis for base defence unless the base is under Bertha bombardment), turning it into a mediocre builder rather than a highly specialized builder...
Would a strong shield with a mediocre builder sidearm be appropriate for a strider?

I don't really understand why it should be used in the base as a builder. Caretakers will generally do that job much better, and if your base it actually being berthaed, the shield won't regenerate, thus being pretty pointless. Isn't it designed to perform much better at the front line? There, its high hp alone will make it a great builder that can reclaim right in the action.

Although I've got a few critical bones to pick about the unit's gameplay concept, for the time, I'll focus on the unit's balance.

For starters, I'm worried about how OP a 4500-cost unit with more shield health than a Paladin would be, even if the shield couldn't self-repair at all. I mean, the Aspis's shield has 3600 HP, and it costs as much as a Jack, which has 6000 HP, but unlike the Jack, it can use that shield health to help protect other, more fragile units, such as a few Rogues, from harm. Imagine needing to bring enough firepower to bring down a freaking Paladin, just to bring down such an OP shield, from a unit that costs less than half of a Paladin!

dyth68: Kind of both, actually.

Imagine pitting a couple Dantes and one of your Funnelwebs, which doesn't have drones, but has 36,000 shield HP, against a Paladin, which costs a mere 1000 metal less than 2 Dantes and a Funnelweb combined. Methinks the Paladin wouldn't last against a couple shield-protected Dantes. Also, if you're thinking about keeping the Paladin at a distance from such a combination, consider that an Iris, which gives shorter-ranged units the opportunity to sneak up to longer-ranged units, costs a mere 600 metal.

Edit: Now imagine if, instead of Dantes, you have lots of Knights hiding underneath that Funnelweb. Yeah...

By the way, as far as unit concepts are concerned, this idea of a Funnelweb that's shielded and capable of building/resurrecting stuff reminds me of an idea for a construction strider that I brainstormed in the past, called the Prometheus:

quote: At 1st glance, this unit might seem pointless, until you realize that this strider is, like the commander, not only tough, but capable of defending itself reasonably well, and between its strong shielding and high buildpower, unless it's met with a strong force, it could not only reclaim or terraform while under fire, but it could protect whatever it builds from enemies long enough to finish building them before they're destroyed.

Only my idea of a shielded construction strider would've been no more expensive than, say, an Ultimatum (which costs 2000 metal), and since it would've focused solely on building and reclaiming on the front lines, it would've been given a shield no bigger than a Felon's, and have enough HP and firepower to ward off a small raiding party, or at least weather a small assault force long enough to get a Stardust or 3 online.

how do i assist in this process.. i will do what i can to help

i got your back bro

Maybe the Paladin wasn't the best example of a unit that would become obsolete (since it might already have some balance issues of its own that need to be worked on). Perhaps a Detriment would be a better example?

A couple Funnelwebs, which would cost 9,000 total, would have a combined shield strength of 72,000, which is almost as much HP as a Detriment, which costs 24,000, and has 85,800 HP. Although a Detriment would have a dps of about 1,605 when up against shields, that kind of damage could be easily matched by 2 or 3 Dantes (which each cost 3,500), or 7 Reavers (which each cost only 220). Of course, neither 3 Dantes nor 10 Reavers would stand a ghost of a chance against a Detriment, but when you add in the Funnelwebs with shields that have 36,000 HP each, along with an Iris to keep the Detriment from automatically targeting them before they can get close enough to the Detriment, then unless the Detriment somehow had the ability to penetrate through shields, and as long as the Dantes or Reavers stay within the Funnelweb's shields, they'll probably come out on top of the Detriment without even taking a single loss (until the Detriment blows up like a Singularity Reactor), with a combined cost that's about 20,100 for 3 Dantes, 2 Funnelwebs, and an Iris, or 11,800 for 20 Reavers, 2 Funnelwebs, and an Iris.

For another example, let's pit a couple Dantes against a Funnelweb, an Iris, and 8 Reavers. Both sides would cost about the same, but the 8 Reavers would have a combined dps of 2,056 (which is about the same as a couple Dantes), and be supported by a shield with a strength of 36,000 HP (while a single Dante has just 11,000 HP). Again, assuming that the Dantes can't penetrate through shields, I'd expect the Reavers, Funnelweb, and Iris to come out on top without losing a single unit.

Now do you see how concerned I am about this new Funnelweb being both a no-brainer to include in the army, and a unit that would basically make all other striders obsolete?

It would take 10 Aspis to match your Funnelweb in shield strength, while the Funnelweb would cost 1500 metal less than the 10 Aspis (which would have a combined cost of 6000). On top of that, the Funnelweb would have 11,000 HP, while the 10 Aspis would have a combined HP total of 7000. Perhaps that's what you intend for this version of the Funnelweb?

Even if you try to handicap the Funnelweb with shield regeneration that only kicks in after a long period of time, or the inability to link with other shields, even if you remove its ability to reclaim or resurrect, I'd still consider this Funnelweb to be OP in the sense that it makes not only Aegis obsolete, but also many other striders as well.

Edit: Also, while I'm uncertain, I do think there's a possibility that bunches of Aspis shield walkers would be susceptible to AoE attacks, such as from a Thunderbird or Likho. The Funnelweb would have no such vulnerability.

Replace Funnelweb in Nebula:



But value Nebula 6000, it very expensive, need 4300-4800, but not > 5000.

Why replace? For fun lobsters!

Updates:
Implemented shield-unlinking.
Buildpower reduced to 50.
Shield is now quite visually distinctive:
[Spoiler]

SmokeDragon: If you're still willing I'd quite like to improve on the shield look.

DeinFreund: Any ideas for how to get shield recharge delay working with energy prioritization? Currently I can either:
* Get regen delay working but be impossible to disable and always consume up to 72 energy when charging, completely crashing your eco if you have less than that coming in.
* Have regen delay working but the shield not consume energy when charging.
* Make an awful hack that checks to see if shield hp has gone down in the last frame and sets a timer to prevent shield regeneration for the next X seconds.

Naturally, none are the right solution.
The tricky bit is checking that the shield has been hit and taken damage...