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Peoples can't play FFA.

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12 years ago
People which are playing FFA every times attack their neighbour, let the most aggressive player get the center and his direct neighbour die.

If you are next to an aggressive player, and he next to a noob, you lose.
No chance of winning - eigter he kill the noob's base with minimal loses and get mexes+wreckages or he will attack you while your other neighbour attacks you too.

And because you are the team which is getting the highest damage statistics.
You will lose more and more units which means you can build less economy with your metal.
Less economy means you are losing at the endgame.

Do you think it could help to make a manual page about FFA and link to tutorials there?

What should that manual page contain if we make it?
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Skasi
12 years ago
The manual only needs to be one line:

INTELLIGENCE IS OF THE ESSENCE!

The rest is "always attack the strongest if they can beat all other players, else consume nearby nub if you can do that fast and easy, else ecowhore".
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12 years ago
>If you are next to an aggressive player, and he next to a noob, you lose.

ZOMG! The better player regularly beats the average player? TELL ME IT AINT SO!

Seriously, that's the whole fucking premise of FFA. The best players win a statistically significant number of games because they are, um, better. Sometimes you'll get unlucky and stuck between two good players. Other times you will get lucky and stuck between two noobs.
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12 years ago
See, this is why I want an FFA gadget that tells everybody who's the most powerful and thus "winning". Yes, it would harm the intelligence-gameplay of Zero-K, but it would improve *everything else* in FFA.

Semi-offtopic: Does FFA use the same system for XP as main teamgames? Because that seems like punishing players for playing FFA - there are far more losers vs. winners than in a standard teamgame.
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12 years ago
the problem is if you are between two noobs, you can consume one, and then get attacked by the aggressive player.

The other nub already has some unit spam of Rockos, Banshees, etc.
You are prepared, but you can't hold back what one player made his whole game.
And they attack not the aggressive one, but you wo ignored them.

You have to fight against 2 enemies at the same time.
You don't have the ressources to engage both good players behind them if they fail to you and the others attack.
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12 years ago
>You have to fight against 2 enemies at the same time.

Yes Neon, that is the very idea behind a FFA. You are literally just describing the game as it is designed to be played. It isn't a problem, it is that way by its very design.

Until ZK gets enough players to start differentiating rooms by Elo (similar to SC's Bronze, Silver, and Gold legues) there will be FFA with noobs and pros, and it will make for some strange battles. By. Design.

Btw, I see many good players regularly take on 2 noobs at once, or even the whole team. I don't see what the problem is with that.
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12 years ago
There where a couple of times i stopped a whole team just because they where nub. It highly depends on luck but its certainly possible.
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12 years ago
Yes you just described FFA its FREE FOR ALL this isnt "p1 v p2, p3 v p4"its "attack whom you want, make alliances with whom you want." you got attacked by two newbies and died and now your mad? well welcome to FFA if you want a 1v1 sure go play in a 1v1 room.

(also let me say neon, your elgrish makes my head hurt)

Here is a nice rant also.

First of all Neon, i was in a couple of games with you, i saw your comments mid game. Check what room your in. This might help.
"Newbies welcome" is going to invite newbies. if you want a game that is rank locked to more experienced players then i suggest you either make one, or ask the dev's to implement a autohost for it.

Secondly, Online chat does not convey things very well, the way you were yelling at people made you come across as very rude and obnoxious, your "help" was more likely to scare away any newbie than welcome him in.

This is a very real problem in ZK i had it alot when i first started, people always screaming at you about newbishness and its a real put off to playing this game. i probably wouldnt be here if i didnt have friends to play it with. (to which most egotistical "pros" would say good riddance)

Thirdy. your rants about manual this and guide that are all well and good but its very "back seat driver" unless you play to do anything about it.
We currently have a newbie guide (albiet a tad bit outdated) perhaps youd like to take a look, save your changes to a note pad and paste it in a new topic?
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12 years ago
FFA is the most difficult game type. It is a game with a much broader range of rarely encountered strategies that you have to be aware of. Additionally FFA is a lot about knowing how to not do anything.

In a teamgame doing things is generally a good way to win, you should keep pressure on and the feedback from the battles gives you an idea of what to do. In FFA you often lack this feedback so you have to be able to judge when to move.
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12 years ago
To 11041: NeonStorm is actually a good player. I saw he won several FFA without loosing. What happen was: Other players each attack each other (loosing alot of units in the process) and when NeonStorm gathered enough forces: all the other player died, and NeonStorm win...

I don't know what's wrong with FFA, but I think it always promote such behaviour. There should be better way of forming temporary alliance IMO.
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12 years ago
What is better than checking a box and asking the other player to do the same?

That is literally ALL you have to do. Click one box, ally clicks one box, and BAM! You've got a ceasefire agreement.
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12 years ago
MYrankxponen - that would be true in games other than ZK/BA, but in this game a decisive victory can net you a tidy profit by claiming wrecks, so sitting at home is not a winning strat. Plus, most good FFA maps have a wealthy central area - Desert Triad, Black Star, Castles, etc. all have a "claim/kill the middle" game that heavily rewards joining the fray.
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12 years ago
With wreckages there are 2 problems :

Bombs don't give you wreckages and do a lot of overkill.
If your units get bombed, you don't get any wreckages.

If you porc on one side and your neighbour thinks you are porcing, he will send one or two scouts to your base - you can even try to get one of his units with dominatrix and reclaim dominatrix once you have trapped his unit in your base between solars - then he will see a very undeveloped base :)

He don't attacks you, because he sees no danger.
But your neighbour suffers from being 2v1.

The most problems which we have, are:
1: no replay links in our manual.
2: no other languages for at least the most important part "core strategies"
3: noobs/newbes which don't read or are unable to understand the language of our manual.

1: Post some good replays for 1v1, FFA, epic team games and include it in our manual.
2: Make at least 1 wiki page have translations or links to it's auto-translated versions.
2.1: I think it would work if we add links to the main page of our manual.
2.2: example link: [link]http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=en&tl=de&js=n&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fzero-k.info%2FWiki%2FManual&act=url[/link]
3: Give newbes PMs about the manual utill they logged in once.
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12 years ago
>With wreckages there are 2 problems

No, no, NO! Everything you are describing is BY DESIGN. I can't understand why you can't see this by now.

It's like you've just played chess, and you're saying "I have a problem with the Knights. They can only move in L-shaped paths. Also, Bishops can only move diagonally. This makes them imbalanced in certain cases." No one else in the entire freaking world has a problem with these chess pieces because they all know that it is that way by design, but suddenly here you are, trying to change the rules of chess.

FFA isn't just this way in ZK; it's for EVERY RTS EVER MADE.

It seems like you just want to play a big 1v1 Tourney in which you only fight 1 person at a time, and then after you beat them you fight the next person. Sorry, that's a 1v1 Tourney, not a FFA. You get good starts and you get shit starts in FFA. Learn how to deal with both.
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12 years ago
The problem is not that nubs ruin the game, the problem is, that they will be demotivated through losses and pros get demotivated because of nubs.

Zero-K don't have metal makers, porc don't work for anything.

We should not change the way how FFA works, but if we really want good FFA games, we have to include the webpage or manual more into the autohosts - easier to find.

We need good replays with specchat - especially because Zero-K is not as "big" as BA.
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12 years ago
>We should not change the way how FFA works, but if we really want good FFA games, we have to include the webpage or manual more into the autohosts - easier to find.

Really, that won't work, and I'll tell you why:

I played WoW for a couple years. I started right before BC came out and quit right after WOTLK came out. I was an extremely pro 4-night-a-week Black Temple raider, complete with the top Tier 6 gear and enchants and all the other stuff. I played as a holy priest and rocked the healing charts raid after raid.

WoW is one of the most analyzed, documented games in history. There were so many tools, spreadsheets, and class guides that would allow you to spec out your toon to perfection. If you didn't feel like reading all that stuff, there were even easier class guides that would break it all down to the most basic level with tips like "for this class, use this exact spec tree and get hit rating to X first, get agility to Y next, then get nothing but Z and P stats". Then they would give a list of easy-to-get gear and where that gear could be found. Stupidly easy.

Despite all of that, raiders in my first guild (a pretty bad one) would show up to raid spec'd all wrong. They would have the wrong spec tree, the wrong gear, and would use the wrong spells and abilities at the wrong time. The better raiders in our group would frequently post guides (the super simple ones) and tell the bad raiders to follow the advice. The bad raiders would come back with bullshit excuses as to why their way was much better.

Now my best friend IRL was also in my guild. He played a Beast Master hunter and was freaking awesome. BM hunters at that time got about 1/3 of their DPS from their pets. As head healer, I would often heal his pet before I would heal certain people in the raid, because his pet did more damage and was more useful than many actual players. I still put priority on our best players, but his pet was still better than many.

One time in raid, the guild leader caught me doing this and called me out, blaming me when we all died. I posted damage charts showing that my buddy's pet did more damage than 3 of the people we had in the raid, the ones that died. Things blew up, there was a ton of drama, and I quit raiding for a week.

During that week, I realized that I had no reason to stay in that guild because it sheltered weaker players and would prefer to let them "do there own thing" instead of forcing them to respec and learn to play their class. I couldn't fault them for that, because there needs to be a place for weaker members. My friend and I applied for better guilds with higher standards, were accepted to our favorite after a test raid, and never looked back.

In that guild we were with like-minded people. People who were studious in their gameplay. People that developed their characters according to what the guild needed and were open to criticisms about gameplay and specs and strategies. Instead of trying to force a whole guild of people to meet my standards, I simply moved up to a better guild.

OK, that was a long story that I got carried away with. Anyways, if WoW's level of documentation and analysis wasn't enough to make many players better, there's little we can do. Some noobs will always be noobs because they don't want to listen. And that's cool. We just need to be able to seperate noobs from pros and that will make everyone happier. Noobs can continue to to play with people on equal footing and won't get crushed, and pros don't have to worry about screaming at noobs all the time (except for fireman, who always has someone to blame).

Unfortunately, this isn't going to happen until we get more players. ZK is continuing to grow and get better, so hopefully we will soon have enough players to start forming Elo-based leagues. In the meantime, FFA's will continue to have weird starts based on the mix of noob/pro players.
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12 years ago
Tell me about ppl choosing wrong spec and gear in wow. When you see a mage stacking mp5 like crazy (i wont mention his spec...) 'because else i go oom' well its time for alot of facepalms. But ye it applies to all games some ppl just stay nubs forever and some learn and become better.
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12 years ago
Antelope - your post is huge but great.

What do all of you think about a documentation of "how to find the replays and how to watch them with certain lobby clients"?

I learned the most things by watching my local saved replay files.
Once I figured out how, my ELO got way better nearly instantly.

If we could explain and link a file where one player did many very small fails and point out this small fails with spec chat/label insertion, it would be a good tutorial.

Once I speced a game where [RD]Godde used hover cons to reclaim instead of even building the 3 metal extractors in his base.
I wonder why he ignored them - hover cons can reclaim with 3m/s, metal extractors make 1.8m/s but cost also only 1/2 cons.
It was the build power - instead of nano towers, the constructors started to build something or assist the factory and saved him from needing nano turrets.

What is a "noob"?
* He underestimate the value of constant income.
* He may understand the value of the square law and big units, but don't see that if he invests all his metal into one unit, the enemy can spend all his metal in counters while he is free from surprises.

If we want to denoob someone, we need to show him:
* the eco-raider, balance ( buff own eco or kill the other ones eco? ).
* how someone take profit from wasted units and that you can reclaim your brawler for a Krow or your shadows for a Licho, etc ...
* how to use early static defenses to lower the loses minimal and units to do the rest.
* the value of terrain/space.

In world of warcraft, you have to choose between strategies, in zk, noobness is only the fail with basics.
WoW is a RPG-team-game, ZK is a strategy game where you need to understand the value of basic ressources ( including space, intel, and time to react )
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12 years ago
Actually hover cons have 6 build power, so they reclaim at a rate of 6 m/s. So it actually generates +6 metal income, or about 3 mexes.

If people really want to get better I would recommend asking for tips from veteran players, who are almost always happy to give good advice. I actually learned a ton myself from vets way back when I first started, from Saktoth in particular. Floris does some nice commentary on games also, perhaps those should be promoted more.
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12 years ago
1: I think that in order to de-noob someone they need to want to be de-noobed.

2: In addition, it takes some work and coaching. PW is good for this. Maybe when PW startup again each faction could start up a training camp. It is not hard to get someone from 1350 to 1600. Beyond that, you will see diminishing returns, because a lot of the higher elo is all about timing and reaction.

3: With the way the software is set up right now, teaching more then 2 or 3 at a time is hard.
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