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Testing Balance with rigged game

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8 years ago
Imagine games where the players start with all factories free or pre-built.

Top players could go head-to-head in these games to accurately simulate a high level team game.

This would allow for great entertainment, and show off where single-player balance may result in unintended misbalances in theoretical high-level team-play.
+2 / -0

8 years ago
This would be an interesting game format, though differences in multitasking abilities would make most games very one-sided.
+0 / -0
Skasi
8 years ago
Or how about a top-20 10v10 with comm sharing? We could put it on YT and pretend we already have korean pro gamers.
+11 / -0
8 years ago
I think it's a little dubious whether you can actually get reliable balance feedback from this. I'd say that balance for high level coordinated team games, random/public teamgames and a game where a single player can access all units without extra cost are all different.
1 big difference between a whole team of experienced players is that a single player can be dedicated to tasks that require a lot of micro and attention like sneaking around with cloaked units or Flea micro.
Skasis idea is much better if you want more reliable feedback but on the other hand it is gonna take a few games before the players can actually establish a metagame where you can get actual balance feedback. I wouldn't use this feedback to change Zero-K since this type of gameplay is too far away from the factory "faction" matchups that occurs in 1v1. But it would be interesting to look at.
+0 / -0
8 years ago
Such things can perfectly easy be done as maps, similiar to how Starcraft/Warcraft have all those special maps.
The problems is...
1) map has no way to force player/team numbers. Some special gamemodes would obviously only work with set amount of players/teams.
2) gets tagged as "silly" and then nobody finds it.
3) mapoptions died
+0 / -0
8 years ago
quote:
Skasi: Or how about a top-20 10v10 with comm sharing? We could put it on YT and pretend we already have korean pro gamers.


I want our resident streamers to give their opinion on their desire to give coverage of such a game.
+0 / -0
My guess of the metagame units mostly focused on land maps would be:

-Flea, decloaker, intel, swarmer, shotwaster.
-Glaive, arguably the best raider.
-Duck, slow raider acting as semi-riot.
-Dagger, fast raider skirmisher. Best raider on amphibious maps. Also good against Glaives, Swifts and decent against Scorchers in interception and offence.
-Scythe, surprise attack if the enemy doesn't deploy Fleas.
-Venom, fast riot for map control. Good with other raiders. Can also stun enemy gunships.
-Scorcher, best flatmap raider.
-Ravager, best flatmap assault able to act as a raider.
-Halberd, blockade runner, shotwaster and assault raider.
-Rocko, light skirmisher against Ducks, Venoms and Halberds.
-Scalpel, mainline riot skirmisher.
-Placeholder, skirmisher, crowdcontrol and semi-antiheavy.
-Scallop, best base drop unit.
-Roach, mobile bomb.
-Eraser, area cloaker. Great combo with roach.
-Rapier, deathballing aircontrol skirmisher.
-Trident, supplemental AA and Rapier counter.
-Swift, air control, raider defense.
-Gremlin, surprise AA, cloaked scout.
-Vandal, cheap mobile AA.
-Copperhead, fast heavy AA with AoE. Especially good against gunship swarms.
-Thunderbird, mass disarm and shield-drain.
-Raven, bomber and artillerysniper.

-Hammer, light artillery.
-Firewalker, riot artillery and anti-skirmish.
-Impaler, long range defensesniper.
-Catapult, long range riot artillery.

-Infiltrator, cheap anti-heavy.
-Skuttle, anti-heavy against unscreened targets.
-Grizzly, heavy skirmisher/artillery and anti-heavy.
-Ultimatum, anti-heavy.
-Dante, riot strider.
-Detriment. Ultimate strider.

-Valkyrie, transporter, base dropper, bomb delivery system.
-Vulture, intel and confusing radar jamming.

-Freaker, fast all-terrain con able to slow enemy units in both defense and offense.
-Quill, fastest flatmap con and amphibious.
-Convict, defense pusher and frontline reclaimer.
+2 / -0
8 years ago
My guess:
Rather than producing a cremé de la cremé unitmix from all factories, reclaim everything you do not need to make more eco or rush your favorite super unit or spam your favorite spam unit.
+0 / -0
DErank[2up]knorke
That depends on how much free buildpower you have. On a map like Ravaged, sure. But then you are probably gonna rush something heavy like a Krow or a Dante.
Otherwise commanders need to expand depending on the map size.
A factory reclaiming commander gives +6 metal per second and a con +4 metal per second. That is about 2-3 mexes income for a short period of time and losing buildpower that you could use to produce units.

Edit:Although. The whole point of using cremé de la cremé unitmix from all factories kinda breaks apart when players start far away from eachother as moving units between players in time might not be feasible combined with the localized build power making switching to the optimal unit from a specific factory in a specific situation unfeasible aswell.
+0 / -0
8 years ago
SErank[Er0]Godde

Why is Gnat missing from that list? Gnat is awesome but often forgotten!
+0 / -0
8 years ago
Well I were torn about the Gnat and the Vindicator.
My thought is that since Swifts are easily available they can counter Gnats pretty effectively forcing the Gnats and Vindicator naps out of the meta.

Like I could see surprise Gnat combined with Vindicator napping heavies and whatnot but the timewindow for that is really small before the opponent can react with Swifts of his own.
+0 / -0
8 years ago
SErank[Er0]Godde

I have a WIP widget that auto-naps paralyzed units using non-busy valkyries and vindicators; it drags them back to the nearest LLT and floats there so you get a non-overkilled wreckage for max reclaim. I lost inspiration, but I could finish it up for you to try out?
+2 / -0
8 years ago
Sure. Sounds fun.
+0 / -0
8 years ago
SErank[Er0]Godde
Thanks! I now got someone to hold myself accountable against! :D
It should be done by monday-ish.
+0 / -0
Skasi
gg no Reaper or Buoy on the list, SErank[Er0]Godde-noob
this is why you will never reach 3000 elmos
+0 / -0

8 years ago
Does everyone know something about buoys I don't? My interest in them was cut short when I realised they're critically weak to SS in a fac that has a slow raider.
+0 / -0

8 years ago
Sharpshooter isn't really that scary since the nerf so people tend to not make them as much any more. Not to mention that every factory isn't a cloaky factory.
+0 / -0
8 years ago
quote:
gg no Reaper or Bouy on the list, [Er0]Godde-noob
this is why you will never reach 3000 elmos

I don't think that Buoy is that good. It is slow compared to Scalpel and relatively expensive. It does perform well in a deathball but that is a really slow deathball while Roaches and Snipers are highly effective against Buoys.
I don't think Reapers are that good when Infiltrators and Skuttles are easily available. Leaving 1 stunned Reaper behind in every retreat beats the point of low attrition through heavyness and Skuttles can kill several when you keep the Reapers together in a dense ball to protect damaged Reapers.
+0 / -0
8 years ago
SErank[Er0]Godde
The widget is nearly done, gonna ask for help today (after sleeping) to figure out how i managed to make the widget both not break and not work.
+0 / -0

8 years ago
I find buoy is decent at its role, it scales well with numbers etc., but once it's countered its countered hard. It's basically a better moderator - but that doesn't make it good.
+0 / -0
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